The good side of Mythic 20man

100 Worgen Druid
17615
Lore, you don't really address any way that Blizz is attempting to make this an easy transition for the majority of players.

Sure we are getting merged realms, but we have no real time table or schedule for when this is happening and we don't even know what realms we are getting put with until just before it happens.

You guys dropped a pretty huge bomb on the raiding population of WoW and seem to have told us that you think things will work themselves out by WoD, which is not reassuring to anyone.

Please give us a real schedule and table of realm mergers, at least something roughly projected. Please give us reduced prices for realm xfers or at least let us bulk xfer characters. Hell bulk xfers would probably make money because it would encourage people to bring all their alts which they normally don't.

But really, this is a massive shift and I do not see Blizzard even putting forth an effort to encourage those who are preparing for it. Instead we are being told to figure this out on our own and tough luck.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Is the new Normal, "Heroic" going to be flexible raid size? That is, will it be 10 or 25 or 10-25? If it's fixed, then that creates a really stupid period every new content patch where the 20 man raid has to split up or add 5 when raiding normal the first week.


They will be flexible and they will also be cross-realmable.
90 Worgen Druid
15175
Stop pretending everyone who cant merge is quitting.

A large percent will just gquit and find somewhere else
90 Human Death Knight
4860
Be wary of this, there's a lot that goes into personality management. I suggest setting up an officer council from each of the constituent groups for resolution of issues. Don't let it eat raid time, and be hasty in tabling issues or sitting people who won't comply until after raid time.


We are taking it slow. We are all just talking at the moment. Setting up the structure and best times. We know some won't be happy but for the most part every one is on board and looking forward to it.
100 Dwarf Death Knight
17290
Whats needed is some way for small 10m guilds to up the difficulty a bit on "Heroic" mode once they have completed it. Not a whole new mode (there are enough modes already) just a little extra. I'm not sure.

But from what I've read here there are quite a few 10m guilds who are able to clear all current Normals halfway through a tier. Currently these guilds can then try their hand at some Heroic modes. But if they are not willing or able to upsize to 20m in WoD they will then have nothing to do.
Edited by Murdina on 11/12/2013 6:15 PM PST
100 Troll Warlock
15940
We recognize that, for some guilds, the transition from 10-player Heroic raiding to 20-player Mythic raiding is going to be something of a challenge. This wasn’t a decision we made lightly. Ultimately, we feel that the long-term benefits for everyone, such as better-tuned raid encounters, a faster encounter design process, and more variety in raid mechanics, are worth the short-term consequences – even for players in guilds facing this transition.

That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:

1) This change is coming with an expansion. Historically, an expansion release has always been a volatile time for guild rosters – and a great time for recruitment. When everyone’s gear is suddenly equalized, the pool of potential recruits swells dramatically. It's also a time in which a lot of former players, friends, and guildmates return to the game. Sure, maybe not all of the above will be of the caliber you’re looking for as a Mythic-minded raiding guild, but you only need 10.

2) On a similar note, we’re continuing to roll out the Connected Realms feature. As more realms are connected, the potential recruitment pool on those realms will grow.

3) While 10-player guilds who want to do Mythic will need to pick up an extra 10 people, current 25-player guilds will need to shed some. That’s yet another thing that will lead into a higher pool of potential recruits.

4) Flexible scaling for Heroic (or Mists of Pandaria's "Normal") difficulty will allow many guilds to "ease in" to a 20-player raid size. Granted, if you’re planning on zoning into Mythic the first day it’s available, this won’t help you much, but for the guild that will spend a few weeks or months on Heroic (MoP Normal) difficulty before eventually clearing it and starting on Mythic, you’ll have plenty of time to expand your roster. What’s more, those new recruits won’t be expected to just warm the bench while they wait.

I think that’s an easy one to forget about. It’s easy to make a mental comparison between a Warlords of Draenor 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 20 for Mythic, and a Mists of Pandaria 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 25. But that comparison doesn’t really work, because the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)


So you're saying it's ok to destroy more than half of the serious 10m raiding guilds for the greater good of the raiding scene? I can understand the logic, but I just don't feel it's "right."

Yes, guilds come and go, and recruits come and go, but that's just a general picture. If you look closely, there are smaller communities within the overall raiding community, each representing certain nationality, timezone, belief, etc. The movement of raiders are constrainded within these smaller communities. We all know about Paragon and their limited Finnish raiding community. The same can be said for many others. So guilds just don't pull players from one big pool of recruits worldwide - they must pick from the pool within the community, which is very limited. Recruiting even ONE player is already difficult. Now consider recruiting 11-12 players... the only reasonable option is a guild merger, which is a nightmare in and of itself.

I suppose most of the American guilds won't have much issue because they all share the language and the timezone are close. But what about others? Euro national guilds with certain languages? Oceanic guilds with limited timezone? Asian guilds that play on US servers? Is it acceptable to destroy these guilds?
100 Tauren Druid
21555
If you guys (Blizzard) are so dead-set on 10's upgrading to 20, then give us recruitment tools.

Get rid of the recruitment forum. It's a disaster, an old outdated tool that is a nightmare to navigate for both recruiters and players seeking guilds. Develop recruitment profiles. Allow a person to flag themselves as LFG, along with a list of preferred raid times and preferred days. Perhaps implement other options such as the "personality" (hardcore, casual, etc) of the group that the person prefers.

Anyone who's been around long enough to remember the WorldofRaids website knows how awesome these tools are, and how they simplify things for both parties.

That said...

What the hell is being done for us 10m groups who do not like large raid sizes? I've said this a million times already across other threads, but if I *wanted* to be in a large raid, I'd already be in one. I'm in 10m for a reason, and that's because I enjoy the intimate atmosphere with my fellow guildmates. I raided 40's and 25's for years from Vanilla through late Wrath, and I never once felt connect to my whole raid like I do in 10m content.

A happy medium is 15m. I would be willing to accept that raid size. 20 just feels too damn large for me (and yes, I can anticipate what it'll feel like because I clearly remember it from original ZG/AQ20 days).

Not to mention the fact that I'm now forced to upgrade my computer to raid 20m. I have an older graphics card and CPU that do the job great in 10's (60-70fps), but when I run an LFR I bomb down to 15fps because my hardware isn't really optimized for that. Several other people in my guild are in the same boat right now and not looking forward to it.
Edited by Tree on 11/12/2013 6:51 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
Ps there is a LFG tool ingame.

But its like voice chat and raid finder
Edited by Ðemolition on 11/12/2013 6:56 PM PST
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
If you guys (Blizzard) are so dead-set on 10's upgrading to 20, then give us recruitment tools
.

This is actually a really constructive suggestion. I think this would be highly valued, the current recruitment forum is not effective and will be even less so once guilds begin to recruit en masse.

I mean lets be honest, for half of us to survive, the other half HAS to die.
100 Tauren Druid
21555
Ps there is a LFG tool ingame.

But its like voice chat and raid finder

PS that LFG tool isn't cross realm. Even if people did use it, you're limited to your realm. You also have to scroll through a MASSIVE list of guilds on there, as a player shopping around. You cannot sort by progress or whatever.

Back on WorldofRaids ages ago, you could sort by which guilds need what and refine profiles from there. WoWProgress has something similar to this right now, which is decent when you're looking for a guild, but when guilds are looking for players it falls short. Most people use the tool, flag themselves as LFG, and forget to turn it off. The message system on that site is pretty crappy too.

It's a sad day and age when a lot of people don't even use Blizzard's own tools (the forum) for recruitment, instead heading to places like WoWProgress. Every week I come across a handful of people on the recruitment forum who repeatedly make threads looking for guilds because they lose track of their old thread. It's just a horrible system.
100 Night Elf Warrior
10780
It's a bad idea. Picking up 10 additional people is just out of the question for my guild. Not to mention we enjoy raiding competitively this way. Like, i'm not one to doubt Blizzard's decisions, but this will effectively kill my guild.
90 Dwarf Hunter
14760
I understand the logic behind this change and why Blizzard feels it will make their jobs easier and why 25 man heroic raiders are happy about it. Unfortunately, all I can think about everytime I look at this change coming is how Blizzard has essentially ripped out the part of the game I like the most, and I keep trying to figure out whether there's still a way for me to still enjoy the game enough to stick around.

I've been raiding with the same guild since vanilla (we had 2 40 man teams back then). I've done the larger raids for several years, and I've slowly seen the friends I've played with gradually drop out of the game as life and other events intervened. In Wrath we got to the point where all our raid leaders were burned out on raid leading larger groups, so we welcomed the change in Cata where we could have smaller more closely knit raid groups whose schedules worked for everyone in the groups.

I started my own 10 man at the beginning of Cata to raid weekends, because my work schedule didn't really allow for me to raid during prime raid hours anymore. I've always enjoyed having a group of fairly close knit members who could be relied upon to show up, be adult about things and generally have a good time. My group never raided with a bench- we relied on friends and alts and fillins when someone couldn't make it, and usually my folks were really good about advance notice so it worked. Over the last couple years I've had to replace folks in the group, but we've managed to keep things going fairly well- with 6.5 hrs to raid a week (and no people to swap out for optimizing encounters) we were never the most progressed group, but we made our way through the content at our own pace, getting to heroics and doing as many as we could before the new tier was released.

Now I'm told that if I want to keep doing what is essentially the heroic content (renamed though it is), I will need to go back to the days of large group raiding- with constant recruiting, having to run a bunch of extra people to cover attendance issues, needing more formal gear distribution, and all the other headaches that come with leading a raid twice as large as the one I currently run.

Alternately, I can leave my guild that I've been in for 9 years, and hope to find another guild which meets my schedule (there aren't a lot of them) that I actually enjoy raiding with.

Or if I prefer, I can just stick with raiding what is essentially normal mode content (which I would have been done with weeks ago if that was all I was doing this tier) after having spent 9 years in this game raiding more challenging content and then wonder what else I can find in the game to get excited about.

Or I could just stop playing and find something else to do with my time (my apologies to those who use my website, but currently this is the most likely option)

Blizzard doesn't really have an answer to this problem I know, but I've talked to many friends in similar boats and a lot of them are also wondering if maybe it's just time to call it quits.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
It's a bad idea. Picking up 10 additional people is just out of the question for my guild. Not to mention we enjoy raiding competitively this way. Like, i'm not one to doubt Blizzard's decisions, but this will effectively kill my guild.


Like I said, half of us need to die.
Community Manager
Seeing a lot of debate about the number 20. Let me take a stab at clearing up a few things:

We chose to put Mythic at 20 largely for the function of raid design. One of the biggest issues we're currently facing with 10-player Heroic raiding is that of raid composition. It's impossible for every group to have every class, and often that means they're lacking in certain tools, which in turn means that we can't design encounters around those tools (or if we do, it becomes extremely frustrating for the 10-player Heroic guild that suddenly needs a Paladin for Hand of Protection).

We want to be able to use those sorts of mechanics again. Those of you who have been with us for a while might remember things like Mage tanks on High King Maulgar, or Priests using Mind Control on Instructor Razuvious. We want it to be okay when, say, the Paladin can use Hand of Protection to clear a dangerous debuff, because we can reasonably assume that most guilds will have at least one Paladin in their raid. We like it when someone gets to feel awesome and have a special task on a fight because of class abilities that otherwise wouldn't get much use.

We can't do that when we're designing with a 10-player raid size in mind. We don't think we'd be able to get away with it at 15 either. At 20, it becomes a lot more acceptable for us to say "you should probably bring a Mage to Spellsteal this." And honestly, that's just one example of the sort of encounter mechanics we can start to utilize in a larger group size.

I'd also call into question the statement of "It's easier to drop people than it is to recruit them." It's technically true, yes -- finding new raiders is harder than just not inviting the ones you have -- but totally ignores the fact that cutting people from your roster often means losing people you like. Which feels better: making new friends, or telling your current ones that they don't get to play with you any more? We're already asking a lot of many 25-player Heroic groups to cut 5 people.

As I mentioned before, this was not a decision we came to lightly. It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people. We knew that when we made the decision. We just also feel quite strongly that, when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.
90 Undead Hunter
6745
:D
100 Tauren Druid
20150
As I mentioned before, this was not a decision we came to lightly. It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people. We knew that when we made the decision. We just also feel quite strongly that, when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.


What about the Melee stigma in raiding currently? Are you addressing this very very urgent issue? Because the cutting of 5 people will boil down to 'which is better? Ranged or Melee?'
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
We can't do that when we're designing with a 10-player raid size in mind. We don't think we'd be able to get away with it at 15 either. At 20, it becomes a lot more acceptable for us to say "you should probably bring a Mage to Spellsteal this." And honestly, that's just one example of the sort of encounter mechanics we can start to utilize in a larger group size.


Why is this? If you're expecting that with a roster size of 20, people can be expected to specifically recruit to have people of that class available (e.g. 1 Mage, 1 Lock etc.), that also holds true for a 15-man roster as well, especially since a 15-man roster will involve more than 15 people - that when they get to the size of 13-15, they can cherry pick recruitment to pick up the ones they're missing.

It clearly doesn't work for 10-man for obvious reasons, but this distinction ..... doesn't really make sense. If you were saying that you feel 20-mans feel more epic, that's a solid point (even if subjective).
Edited by Slashlove on 11/12/2013 7:37 PM PST
100 Night Elf Warrior
11270
@Lore, I definitely cannot wait for the amazing encounters that Blizzard has in store for us with only 1 mode of raiding Mythic, this is just going to be an amazing experience, do not let yourself get down by all the crying.

Stand your ground, you are doing the best decision to repair all of this 10vs 25man mess
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9580
I have to agree with Tree and Broly on this call forcing people into 20s to raid is just plain ludicrous hell it's hard enough in our guild to get 10 people on at the same time unless it's a raid night set weeks in advance we want to do heroics and now you're forcing us to add 10 more in order to do this?

That is absolutely a slap in the face to both types of guilds add in the removal of the personal loot system back to the old and you have a recipe for disaster the only reason most of us in my guild do lfr is to get interim gear to survive working on normal we shouldn't have to group with a load of loudmouthed jerks that only know their class doing recounts every boss fight and Insulting everyone having yet something else to lord over our heads. Did you even think about that seriously do an LFR yourselves with the min gear score needed and you then respond to me saying that that personal loot system doesn't at last give you something to look forward to after all the abuse. Now take that away add in all the abuse and couple it with threats of hey guess what you didn't kiss my butt you don't get this hurr durr I can guarantee it'll happen.

I guess what I'm trying to say is put yourselves in the shoes of others before forcing those gaudy sandles onto others. 20 is only gonna end up in loads of frustration on both sides of the fence. and killing the personal loot system is gonna end up with a lot more drama then already happens. neither is solving anything it's only adding into the inevitability of more problems.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
We chose to put Mythic at 20 largely for the function of raid design. One of the biggest issues we're currently facing with 10-player Heroic raiding is that of raid composition. It's impossible for every group to have every class, and often that means they're lacking in certain tools, which in turn means that we can't design encounters around those tools (or if we do, it becomes extremely frustrating for the 10-player Heroic guild that suddenly needs a Paladin for Hand of Protection).


I'll restate my former question on are you going relatively easy in the first tier on difficulty to accommodate recruitment, as "are you going to go relatively easy on class specific mechanics during the first tier to at least respect we may favor critical mass over specific classes during initial recruitment?"

or do we need to hit that critical mass in a class balanced shape off the go now?
Edited by Firestyle on 11/12/2013 7:30 PM PST
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