The good side of Mythic 20man

100 Pandaren Priest
17445
Over 4 years ago you guys introduce heroic (threw hardmodes at the time) 10m content, and I and many have enjoyed it immensely. With WoD you will be removing Challenging 10m content for no good reason other then you want to improve 20m raiding which, in fairness, makes no sense whatsoever. You have done everything you can to make more content more accessible threw LFR/Flex and now making normal flexible which is great but removing content is NEVER a good idea. There is a lot of people who enjoy challenging 10m content and have been doing it for 4 years now, removing it is bad. I for one have done both 25m and 10m, I did not like 25m at all and choose to do 10m which was awesome because we had a choice between doing 25m heroic or 10m heroic. Now that choice is being removed and we are being told to #dealwithit.

So why do I feel your reasoning behind removing 10m Mythic to improve 20m Mythic doesn't make any sense? Because you can at any time make 20m Mythic that complex "epic" while still creating content for 10m Mythic. Look at Naxx 10/25, those fights were changed to allow smaller groups the ability to do the fight, sure the fight is easier in 10m but who cares the challenging 10m content is still there. I think the ENTIRE 10m Heroic community would be totally fine if the fight was changed slightly and even made "easier" so 10m can still do the content without being forced to raid 20m to be challenged.

Instructor Raz had pillars to MC, the spider chick you had to kill the guys beside her to remove the buff etc. Ya those fights were technically easier in 10m but you can make it so 10m achievement's are seperate we don't care, give 100% warforged to 20m and 1% warforged to 10m because their content is harder. Say that 10m Mythic will be easier then 25 Mythic and avoid the silly 10v20 debate that h10m raiders could care less about but don't remove content that has existed and players have played for almost 5 years now.

Removing challenging 10m content after 4 years and 3 expansions is one of the worst choices you have ever made. Seperate 10m Mythic and 20m Mythic, say they are different and 10 will be easier and be done with, if it can't be balanced so be it but telling us you want one to be better so were removing the other is a cop out.
Edited by Trinko on 11/12/2013 7:39 PM PST
90 Worgen Death Knight
12860
To those suggesting that 15 man mythic would be feasible to have every class, yes it would be possible. However, the devs want flexibility in who you bring. The smaller the raid size, the lower the likelihood of any particular class being present. So "bring the player not the class" becomes harder and harder with smaller sizes.
100 Tauren Druid
18405
Bring the player, not the class indeed.
100 Pandaren Hunter
18665
11/12/2013 07:21 PMPosted by Waraila
As I mentioned before, this was not a decision we came to lightly. It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people. We knew that when we made the decision. We just also feel quite strongly that, when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.


What about the Melee stigma in raiding currently? Are you addressing this very very urgent issue? Because the cutting of 5 people will boil down to 'which is better? Ranged or Melee?'


Shouldn't some of this be solved by more class specific mechanics if they put them in? For example, something that a monk's transcendence can really take advantage of. Or for kitties, what about an enemy you can't charge or hurt from the front, but the back? (Feral charge putting you behind the target solving it.)
100 Orc Death Knight
15710
25 mans will lose ppl naturally because of a new expansion coming out. Most of them wont have to cut friends. Expecting all of these 10 mans to magically double in size is simply not going to happen for many of them.

Its not fair that they cant raid the highest mode through no fault of their own.
100 Gnome Warlock
11060
I don't understand why people can't just try something before they start complaining. This feature isn't even out yet, so no one has a good concept of how it might be. If it kills your guild to run something that is really an optional choice, then I don't believe your guild is meant to run it. That's just my opinion and all, but I just think it's ridiculous to read this.
12 Troll Shaman
12595
I think they picked 20 man mainly because they really wanted to pick 25 as the "this is the real raiding size." But they felt if they had picked 25 man, they would have pissed more people off than picking 20 mans. Personally i think they should have done 25 man mythic instead of 20 man; mainly b/c adding new friends is easier than saying goodbye to 5 current friends.
100 Orc Death Knight
15710
I don't understand why people can't just try something before they start complaining. This feature isn't even out yet, so no one has a good concept of how it might be. If it kills your guild to run something that is really an optional choice, then I don't believe your guild is meant to run it. That's just my opinion and all, but I just think it's ridiculous to read this.


We LOVE the feature. I would bet we all do. But we can also do math.

25 -> 15 is far easier than 10 -> 20.
@Lore, all this change has done so far is drive an even deeper wedge between the 10 man and 25 man guilds. Read the forums. Every post that discusses this is filled with 25 man raiders saying "suck it up", "recruit more", or my personal favorite "just don't do Mythic because you obviously aren't dedicated enough".

I know of multiple 10 mans, including mine, that are perfectly capable of clearing heroics. We are 3/14 HC because we had a tank drop and haven't been able to do much progression the last 2 weeks. We raid 2 nights per week for 3 hours per night. We killed Garrosh after a month.

Recruitment is horrible. Try recruiting players of the caliber you need when you run a very casual schedule like ours. We run 6 hours per week while some guilds do that in 1 night. Our raiders are unique in that they fit into our schedule. It is extremely difficult keeping 10 raiders and now you are saying we need to keep 20?

I'm sure I will get hammered by a bunch of 25 man raiders saying all the same things, but the fact remains if our only option in WoD is normal and heroic then we will finish the content and probably lose raiders or people will unsub until there is more content. This is exactly the opposite of what you as a company want.

I understand your 15 argument, now here is mine. 15s is the right answer, period. A 10 man would need to recruit about 5 people. A 25 man would be able to split their raid into 2 raid teams and also recruit about 5 people. It is evenly spread that way.

If Mythic requires a certain class for an encounter so be it. The answer can be "we told you about this a long time ago so go get yourself a mage or someone grab an alt mage".

Alternately, have you considered simply keeping normal as normal, heroic as heroic, and tune Mythic to be above heroic, bordering on impossible? Give all these "elite" raiders a real challenge. Make it 20 because most 10 mans would never see it and the ones that could will have no trouble recruiting.

You gave flex to the people that weren't able to do normal. Now because of that you want to take away heroics from a huge number of 10 mans? You gave raiding to the people who were plain not good enough to do normals and want to take away content from people that can beat that same content?

None of this makes sense and it will hurt you in the long run. Sorry for the long post, but I hope you find it constructive and thought provoking. Now I will go put on my Fire Resist gear and wait.
100 Pandaren Hunter
18665
Bring the player, not the class indeed.


Was never intended for heroic. Just normals, eg now you don't have to bring a shaman for blood lust. Which you did no matter difficulty of raiding you were doing, normal or heroic.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
I'll also say I think that going to 20 man based on other factors besides desire for class specific mechanics made far more sense. For example, 1) greater melee inclusion, 2) increasing local realm demand for raiders to bolster the community and reduce mega-realm transfer activity, 3) driving back mega-server guilds to other realms based on the increased competition for raiders, and 4) bolstering the community through larger guilds which tend to be less-closed knit and help people network friends of friends better.

Desire for class-specific mechanics would ultimately be pretty low on the list of reasons.
100 Pandaren Priest
17445
I think the worst part is even if we want to switch to 20m there is effectively not much we can do till the expansion. Giving this notice way in advance doesn't help because we can't recruit anyone till the expansion launches ... unless you want to rotate 20 people within a 10m or somehow make 2 10man's which is very difficulty considering you need 4 tanks 6 healers but for 20m you only need 5 healers and 2 tanks.

Everyone is gonna be mass recruiting the minute the expansion hits, gonna be fun finding people with all this mess.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
15750


So why do I feel your reasoning behind removing 10m Mythic to improve 20m Mythic doesn't make any sense? Because you can at any time make 20m Mythic that complex "epic" while still creating content for 10m Mythic.


Perhaps Blizzard can go back to making beginner (ie kara) and "side" (ie ZG) 10-man dungeons, with a Mythic mode, to satisfy the desire of players to have challenging 10-man content. RAIDS deserve to be more epic with unrestricted creative freedom - designing the same encounters for both 10 and 20(5) man versions is currently handcuffing the designers. There are clearly too many encounter design ideas that are too difficult to implement with a 10-man group size in mind. Does a painter want to limit themselves to only 10 colors for a painting? Maybe for a specific idea or theme (a 10 man dungeon...) but certainty not to create a work of art with a limitless palette.
12 Troll Shaman
12595
@Lore, all this change has done so far is drive an even deeper wedge between the 10 man and 25 man guilds. Read the forums. Every post that discusses this is filled with 25 man raiders saying "suck it up", "recruit more", or my personal favorite "just don't do Mythic because you obviously aren't dedicated enough".



Do you know how many times 25's were told to suck it up that 25's were dying.

I say this is 10 mans getting their just desserts.

Besides, I'm excited to see them be able to assume that every class is present in a raid, and let them make some really fun and exciting challenges.
90 Troll Warlock
11160
I'm glad the 10 vs 25m debates will end in the next expansion. It's been an exhausting experience of wading through flamewar threads with little to no constructive criticism. One raid size is the best thing for the game imo. It gets me excited to want to raid again with a guild. I'm just wondering why not just have 20 across the board for all raids? Or are you leaving the raids outside of mythical as is for a transitional period? Or is mythical gonna be exclusive just to 20m?
Edited by Reactablezz on 11/12/2013 7:55 PM PST
12 Troll Shaman
12595


Perhaps Blizzard can go back to making beginner (ie kara) and "side" (ie ZG) 10-man dungeons, with a Mythic mode, to satisfy the desire of players to have challenging 10-man content. RAIDS deserve to be more epic with unrestricted creative freedom - designing the same encounters for both 10 and 20(5) man versions is currently handcuffing the designers. There are clearly too many encounter design ideas that are too difficult to implement with a 10-man group size in mind. Does a painter want to limit themselves to only 10 colors for a painting? Maybe for a specific idea or theme (a 10 man dungeon...) but certainty not to create a work of art with a limitless palette.


Look, anything other than making 10 man mythic an option will not satisfy these people.
100 Pandaren Priest
17445
Perhaps Blizzard can go back to making beginner (ie kara) and "side" (ie ZG) 10-man dungeons, with a Mythic mode, to satisfy the desire of players to have challenging 10-man content. RAIDS deserve to be more epic with unrestricted creative freedom - designing the same encounters for both 10 and 20(5) man versions is currently handcuffing the designers. There are clearly too many encounter design ideas that are too difficult to implement with a 10-man group size in mind. Does a painter want to limit themselves to only 10 colors for a painting? Maybe for a specific idea or theme (a 10 man dungeon...) but certainty not to create a work of art with a limitless palette.


Then make it for 20m and then modify the fight for 10m. Then outright say "10m Mythic versions will be easier". They can at any time make amazingly epic 20m content they just have to realize and admit they can't balance the two and make the 10m version slightly different. It honestly feels like Blizzard is telling the 25m community it's the 10m's fault your encounters aren't epic enough so now after we remove 10m content your content will be a lot better while 10m community just #dealwithit. Thread after thread 25m's are attacking 10m's because of this.
Edited by Trinko on 11/12/2013 7:58 PM PST
Do you know how many times 25's were told to suck it up that 25's were dying.

I say this is 10 mans getting their just desserts.


Thank you for proving my point in less than 5 minutes. It would be more beneficial for everyone if we stayed as constructive as possible. I used to raid 25 man, we had to stop because, get this, we couldn't keep the roster size up on our server. Now we need to do it again, with fewer people.

Until I see how connected realms will look I don't take that as an alternative. My server is "medium", we may not even get connected or we may get connected to dead realms with no raiders.
90 Troll Warlock
11160
11/12/2013 07:55 PMPosted by Trinko
Perhaps Blizzard can go back to making beginner (ie kara) and "side" (ie ZG) 10-man dungeons, with a Mythic mode, to satisfy the desire of players to have challenging 10-man content. RAIDS deserve to be more epic with unrestricted creative freedom - designing the same encounters for both 10 and 20(5) man versions is currently handcuffing the designers. There are clearly too many encounter design ideas that are too difficult to implement with a 10-man group size in mind. Does a painter want to limit themselves to only 10 colors for a painting? Maybe for a specific idea or theme (a 10 man dungeon...) but certainty not to create a work of art with a limitless palette.


Then make it for 20m and then modify the fight for 10m. Then outright say "10m Mythic versions will be easier". They can at any time make amazingly epic 20m content they just have to realize and admit they can't balance the two and make them lightly different. It honestly feels like they are telling the 25m community it's the 10m's fault your encounters aren't epic enough.


Then you are not getting the experience that the designers want to create. So then you end up crippling their great work out of some personal convenience.
Edited by Reactablezz on 11/12/2013 7:59 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Monk
13045
11/12/2013 07:24 PMPosted by Slashlove
We can't do that when we're designing with a 10-player raid size in mind. We don't think we'd be able to get away with it at 15 either. At 20, it becomes a lot more acceptable for us to say "you should probably bring a Mage to Spellsteal this." And honestly, that's just one example of the sort of encounter mechanics we can start to utilize in a larger group size.


Why is this? If you're expecting that with a roster size of 20, people can be expected to specifically recruit to have people of that class available (e.g. 1 Mage, 1 Lock etc.), that also holds true for a 15-man roster as well, especially since a 15-man roster will involve more than 15 people - that when they get to the size of 13-15, they can cherry pick recruitment to pick up the ones they're missing.

It clearly doesn't work for 10-man for obvious reasons, but this distinction ..... doesn't really make sense. If you were saying that you feel 20-mans feel more epic, that's a solid point (even if subjective).
With 10 classes, maybe. With 11, 12, 13, etc... not really. It's a future-proofing thing.
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