An idea about flying.

90 Goblin Rogue
7585
Edit: Wow, three blue posts in a thread I started, never had that happen before! (to me anyway). That pretty much trivializes everything in this post I've started and taken it oh so much further out of my ability to read. I mean, 19 hours ago I made this original post, and now the topic's 39 pages LONG! OMG!!! Anywho, I'll leave the original content of this message for refference purposes, but otherwise, Bashiok and Nethaera have already answered all the questions about flying in WoD. Just follow the blue post link at the top!

From what I've been reading, there's a lot of back and forth about whether or not flying should be permitted in WoD. Here's what I've gotten from both sides so far:

For flying:
Saves time and makes the game more enjoyable for those whom have more than one toon to level through the content.
The artwork is nice and all, but it can get repetitive after a while, when you have to go through the same path more and more.

Against Flying:
Breaks world pvp to where it's almost non-existant.
Prevents people from viewing the artwork that the dev's worked hard on for the world.

My idea to give everyone a little of what they want, which I'm welcome to creative feedback and will edit my post accordingly to incorporate such feedback is as follows:

1: On RP/PVE realms, incorporate Flying in WoD as a perk for those whom have at least one toon at level 100.

2: Also on RP/PVE realms, once the player has a level 100 toon capable of WoD flying, they can purchase the ability to fly on any other SAME SERVER toon at level 90.

3. On PVP/RPPVP realms in WoD zones, completely disable flying so world pvp is no longer "broken".

4. On PVP/RPPVP realms, while this has nothing to do with flying, an idea to fix the issue of max level players from murdering low level players trying to farm/level grind themselves would be to turn off honor for killing opponents whom are at a lower level than you for those at level cap and those that turn off their exp. Level 100's should need to focus on killing other level 100's, not level 96's whom are still working on those last four levels. (Thank you for the idea Seróquel)

I'm no coder, but from what I've seen them do with things like the Death Knights becoming permitable after one toon reaches 55 for ANY realm, and seeing what they did with the faction rep bonuses in Mists, I believe something like the first two ideas should be simple to do. The third idea would then be a 'realm type check' as soon as they enter a WoD zone and if they fell into the specified server group, they don't fly in those zones until they return to Azeroth.

Edited for idea 4 on 11/13/13
Edited by Aggler on 11/14/2013 11:03 AM PST
90 Human Mage
7580
3. On PVP/RPPVP realms in WoD zones, completely disable flying so world pvp is no longer "broken".


I totally agree with this. WPvP needs to be revived. This a great step, but more needs to be done than just this, obviously. For one, Resil shouldn't be baseline... but that's a whole other topic.

I don't understand the whole uprising against this. It would benefit the game in the long run. Well, at least on PvP servers. I really don't care all too much about what happens on PvE servers. I'm not sure how they could incorporate it, though. Maybe go through a series of quests to unlock flying in areas? Just an idea. Having a level 100 is a good step.

Oh, and who*
90 Undead Warrior
7720
Why not leave it as it is?

If people want world pvp, they will find world pvp. What they want is to be able to farm low level zones while the low level players have absolutely NO chance of beating them or escaping them.

If someone goes into a low level zone at max level sees and targets a low level player, make their level automatically drop 2 levels below the person they targeted. After all if they are sooo good at pvp that they need to farm low level zones for kills, this should not be an issue at all.
90 Goblin Rogue
7585
Sero'quel that can easily be fixed by adjusting the honor system to where you get no honor from killing someone of lower level once you either turn off exp gains or reach the level cap, which thanks to your statement, I'll be adding that to my first post.
90 Human Rogue
4805
11/13/2013 03:52 PMPosted by Frreeze
3. On PVP/RPPVP realms in WoD zones, completely disable flying so world pvp is no longer "broken".


I totally agree with this. WPvP needs to be revived. This a great step, but more needs to be done than just this, obviously. For one, Resil shouldn't be baseline... but that's a whole other topic.

I don't understand the whole uprising against this. It would benefit the game in the long run. Well, at least on PvP servers. I really don't care all too much about what happens on PvE servers. I'm not sure how they could incorporate it, though. Maybe go through a series of quests to unlock flying in areas? Just an idea. Having a level 100 is a good step.

Oh, and who*


This game is an end game game. End game is PvE. They are not going to worry about WPvP. If they did care about it, there would not be the huge gear imbalance that there is now. PvE servers exist because a huge number of people don't want PvP. Just look at the crying that happens because of the Isle.

Blizz couldn't give two !@#$s about PvP. To them it is almost a necessary evil. They want us to run around for one reason and one reason only. It is slower and takes longer to clear content. I think you can figure out why that is good for them.
Community Manager
There's a lot of discussion about flying/not-flying and I'd like to try to sum things up and maybe realign the discussion a bit. Some of the other threads are near-cap, some have really gone down tangents, so I'm just picking this one to throw a reply into. Apologies to the other threads.

We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor. No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.

Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.
Edited by Bashiok on 11/13/2013 6:17 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12590
We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor.


So wait. If we hit level 100 in WoD before the first major patch (if I'm reading this correctly), we won't be able to fly... at max level? Until 6.1, that is.

Please say it ain't so, Bash!
Edited by Disclosure on 11/13/2013 6:26 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Warlock
11275
3. On PVP/RPPVP realms in WoD zones, completely disable flying so world pvp is no longer "broken".


No.
We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor.


Why not just have it the same way it was in MoP: No flying till 100, then the moment you hit 100 you can fly again?
Edited by Third on 11/13/2013 6:16 PM PST
90 Dwarf Shaman
18850
Can we at least get +200% speed ground mounts (disabled in BGs, of course) so it's not quite as painful?
90 Human Rogue
0
We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor.


Available again at level cap, or just in general post-6.1?
90 Human Warlock
16030
As long as we can fly at level cap again i don't care.

11/13/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Bashiok
We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor.


Well i guess i will see you in 6.1 when i resub.
Edited by Lethalock on 11/13/2013 6:20 PM PST
90 Human Warrior
13065
We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor.

No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.


Here's the problem: You're pretending like there will be no time at all between hitting 100 and the first major content patch coming out.

That's ridiculous. There's a whole raid tier there. We'll be at level 100 within a week. We'll then be in 6.0 for a good 4 to 6 months unable to fly. You can't just brush that off and say "That's how we've always done things".

There's a lot of people who are fine with no flying while leveling, who think the change being discussed is ridiculous. You trying to frame the argument in such a way that the change isn't a change at all is frankly disingenuous.
90 Human Paladin
10115
11/13/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Bashiok
We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor.


Thanks for the head's up, now I know not to order it when it comes out.
90 Human Warrior
15670
Maybe it's because I come from the days when you RAN yourself everywhere until 40...and even then you had what is now considered a slow mount until level cap...but this "no flying until 6.1" thing doesn't really bother me. I personally enjoy those periods where ground is required...Howling Fjord probably wouldn't have had the same aesthetic appeal if I could just "Meh...*Liftoff*" and ignore everything but quest objectives. Creates a bit more sense of danger too when you can't just dance in the air over the heads of the big scary Fel Reaver-esque creatures and you're actually stuck at toe level with them.

EDIT: Also...there's almost certainly going to be flight paths...why are people freaking out and thinking they have to cross entire zones on land mounts? You will probably still be able to fly plenty of places...just maybe a little less direct than A to B. Hop a gryphon and check your e-mail/facebook/wowhead/etc...
Edited by Tayledras on 11/13/2013 6:28 PM PST
I really really don't like this decision. It feels punitive to people with less time to play that we will need to spend big chunks of our limited playtime riding around and getting into a bunch of useless fights.

It's not something that would make me not buy the expansion, but it's definitely something that would stop me from playing until 6.1. Please reconsider your decision for people who don't want to spend large amounts of their play sessions riding around avoiding stuff.
90 Orc Warlock
9640
There is no reason that flying shouldn't be allowed for alts, after you've gotten a character to expansion max level. I've been through and seen the content, I've done the grind, I want to get my next guy to 90, and enjoy the "real game" now, as soon as possible. Wrath had it done correct. No flying the first time through, trivial gold purchase for all alts afterwards.

Doing the same quests on my Paladin, at the same speed I just did on my Warlock, that I did before on my DK, that I had already done on my Druid, that I did first is on my Shaman not immersion, it's agony.
Edited by Fehru on 11/13/2013 6:24 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
16660
I hope you'd allow Archeologist to teleport to nodes through some expensive items then. Archeology has been the only thing I'm worried about when I heard flying or the lack thereof talks.
90 Troll Warrior
12810
11/13/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Bashiok
We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor.


Cool. Looks like I won't be buying the expansion until 6.1.

Thanks for the heads-up.
11 Draenei Paladin
50
11/13/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Bashiok
We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor.

Just how long of a time span between launch and the 'first major patch for Warlords of Draenor" are we talking about? If it is longer than 7 days from launch day you guys are making an idiotic move of epic proportions!
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