Overheal vs Healing, a personal problem?

90 Orc Shaman
5710
I'm having an issue with being lower on the healing meters but coming in real high into the over heal side of the meters. Been trying to use more direct heals to try to lower my ratio but I still find it favoring over healing more so than heals. I know meters are not the best thing to judge a healers ability but I just don't get why I'm so tipped toward over healing.

I've been using a priority system of going to most injured, tank, myself other heals. I've been keeping up, up times on my self buffs like riptide. I keep healing rain and healing stream on cool down. Also earth shield on the active/taunting tank 100% (as close as I can) of the time. Throw out some direct heals on really injured and chain if i see a large dip in hp across the board.

I have no issues with mana, and my activity is always right where it should be (with in a % or two, of the most active. I've even tried using more greater/healing waves more to help reduce the amount of over healing. Which has helped a little.

In my raids we've even had other resto shamans (they've been better geared than I, so i don't expect to come out on top) but i still find a place near the bottom of healing and near the top on over heals.

Is this a product of having too many heals brought to the party, my style of play or something I'm not thinking of that might reflect in my effect I have on the raid? I'm catching grief for my numbers and I'm trying different things and using a bunch of resources to correct the problem but, I'm unable to do so.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Lames
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Meh if you are not running out of mana it doesn't really matter. A couple of weeks ago on protecters i did a total of 69million e healing, and 109 million over healing. It died so doesn't mean anything.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10275
s this a product of having too many heals brought to the party, my style of play or something I'm not thinking of that might reflect in my effect I have on the raid? I'm catching grief for my numbers and I'm trying different things and using a bunch of resources to correct the problem but, I'm unable to do so.


My guess is too many healers. Beyond that, essentially, the priority goes: Disc > Paladin > Druids > Shaman > Monk > Holy Priest.

Not that that represents better or worse, just healing mechanics. Absorbs > Hots > Thruput Healing. Disc Priest get first crack at damage thru the nature of their abilities. Hots always tick faster than casts, and well everyone else just gets what is left.

With several healers in a raid you run into problems.

That said: RShaman are REALLY strong in this tier and you should be able to put strong numbers up regardless. Essentially, I would suggest that if you want to see the numbers reversed on your meters you take a closer look at damage patterns in fights. Don't respond, anticipate. Know when the damage is coming and act accordingly.

Also while it'll be impossible for you to dump the majority of your mastery, Crit will carry you much further for general Healing on meters. Your Mastery's affect scales on the targets Health %. So unless people are REALLY low, its not the best. Outside of that, I'm not too up to date on my Shaman, so I'd suggest looking for some decent guides that reflect the 5.4 environment.

In short, Learn to Snipe Heal.

O.o
Edited by Goobadin on 11/14/2013 5:51 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Monk
8805
Healing Rain is kind of a double edged sword, in this case. It's so powerful that you want it down all the time -- it can pretty much solo heal certain phases -- but it will by its nature put out a ton of overhealing in addition to its effective healing. Overhealing is an inevitable part of the game right now, and Healing Rain makes it worse.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Been trying to use more direct heals to try to lower my ratio but I still find it favoring over healing more so than heals.


I know I'm cherry picking a single line out of your post, but I think you may be leaning towards "reactive" healing vice "proactive" (or pre-emptive) healing which may be causing part of the issue. Direct heals lead to sniping depending on how fast your cast times are.

Discs & Hpals have absorbs which let us pre-emptively heal like champs, and really snipe teh heck out of folks before damage even comes in. If we know damage is coming, we can also start layering shields, and start getting heals off a half second before the raid damage is going to land which turns your healing into overhealing. It's part of the reason we appear so high on the meters.

The way to combat that is for you to pre-emptively heal as well, and know the high damage phases of the fight, and wait for the lulls in the absorb healers casts. It's counter intuitive though. You're going to cast when you see folks health start to go up vice down, trying to get that second phase of damage as the first wave is eaten by the other healers. Basically throttle back as others ramp up. Push hard while they recover, and etc.

And like others have said, don't sweat the overhealing too much. It's not a big deal as long as others aren't dying and you aren't running out of mana. Heck, if the boss dies, and one person lives, it's a win. Might not be a clean win... but sometimes we like a dirty dirty girl....
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90 Orc Shaman
5710
Thanks a lot for the responses. I'll try to include crit into my build, I've heard this from a couple shaman as well, to increase my through put heals.. Also I'll try more at a more pre-casting/pre-emptive approach.

Any more ideas are very much so welcome! I figure there are two ways to learn. A.) The hard way and B.) Listening to someone who learned the hard way.

Thanks,
Lames
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Get a tracking mod. Will help with your totem/RT/HR uptimes. Lots of good ones out there. Weakauras/Powerauras/Tellmewhen/Needtoknow/Ect.
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90 Night Elf Druid
16940
i over heal like a mofo and i dont care why know? im a druid

see no problem with overhealing but thats me
Edited by Nillie on 11/14/2013 1:53 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
12900
My primary alt is a 10man resto shaman.

Healing Rain generates *insane* overheal numbers, but it's nothing you can really worry about since Blizzard has made it our primary healing tool >.>

My suggestion is to grab a tracking mod like Harpoa says, if you don't already use one (I use Weak Auras and love it; there are a million tutorials for it on Youtube if you'd like to see the kind of thing that it does for you). Use it to track Unleash Life, and never cast Healing Rain unless UL is up. This means you'll have a few seconds with no HR on the ground, but the buff UL gives HR makes a huge difference both to your effective healing as well as of course the overhealing HR does ;)

... or certainly train yourself into using UL on every 2nd HR if you're really attached to 100% HR uptime.

Back in ToT when I was raiding on the shaman, I would get over 300 casts of UL per 3hr raid night.

Secondly, I personally would suggest investing in some more Haste on your gear. The 2nd Healing Rain breakpoint is well worth gearing for; you might be in slightly low ilvl gear to be able to make it without too much sacrifice if you don't have both 5% raid spell hast buff and Ancestral Swiftness (which I believe some shamans are swapping in & out depending on content), but give the idea some consideration and certainly once you get lucky with a few more upgrades it should be feasible. At the moment, you're sitting in between Haste breakpoints, "wasting" hundreds of points of gear itemization.

Yes, I know, Haste between breakpoints still helps spell cast time, so no it's not a *total* waste... just very close to a total waste ;D

Gearing for higher Haste isn't a "must do"; it's just a possible choice. It certainly plays the biggest part in competing with other healers for available healing, though, if you're worried about that kind of thing.

And on that topic, I'll touch on the LFR/Flex issue. You're not doing normal mode content (though Flex does a decent job of being better-than-LFR difficulty, especially for a group in LFR-ilvl gear!) and you're likely bringing more healers to the runs than are actually needed (ie, overhealing content). That's not a terrible thing; it helps plenty of guilds clear content that they'd otherwise wipe on because of not being able to occasionally heal through player mistakes. However, in that scenario, you're absolutely going to be competing for heals except in those "oh sh!t" moments... and those moments don't usually occur enough for every healer to end up able to catch up to Disc priest/holy paladin absorbs.

No harm in trying to find ways of pushing your hps; it's good to always be challenging yourself! Just don't get too down on fights where you just can't seem to "catch up".
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90 Orc Shaman
5710
I'm using weak auras in my set up and i also have Pitbull for my frames. (it has a totem tracker for what's up and how much time is left on it.) I track up times on overall and per fights using Skada and back up the info with my personal world of logs which i record to, just to make sure my numbers are on point.

Would investing in more crit out weigh going for the next haste point? I'm at moment trying to get some better trinkets because they can be the back bone of the healer. I watch for when they proc with my weak auras and do so accordingly. I have some gear I need to reforge/gem/enchant now am just curious to which direction I should head to. I'll most likely give both a shot though. Just to see how they work with my style.

Kinda thinking going more crit might be better at the moment, because even with the extra ticks would they be on the tail end and only adding to my over heal margin instead of say criting on my opening heal and apply more to the applied heals?

Also I just LFR heal and started doing some flex run on the shaman to try to get a feel for getting into raiding.

When I healing rain I almost always do so with unleashed elements, I aim for as high as I can on it. Ive been trying to pair the two on a castsequence macro just help remind me, so far it's been working out pretty well.

Thanks,
Lames
Edited by Lames on 11/14/2013 3:21 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
12900
11/14/2013 03:11 PMPosted by Lames
Would investing in more crit out weigh going for the next haste point?


imo, no (... but I could *very* easily be wrong, and if other awesome shamans out there have the theorycrafted #s from somewhere, have at it because I haven't kept as up-to-date with shamans this patch, having switched to my priest); crits provide large heals on an inconsitent basis. Since you can't control who is going to get a crit heal, or when they're going to get a crit heal, and since shamans have no mechanism by which crit-generated overhealing is... "saved" for future damage (such as Divine Aegis with Disc priests), crit pads your overhealing more than it pads your effective healing ***in a heal-sniping environment.***

I believe boosting HR (and your totems) so they tick regular-sized heals faster is a better sniping tool.

edit: Haste will definitely pad your overhealing too, lol, don't get me wrong! I just think it's likely to net you a little more hps than crit, given the heal-sniping thing.
Edited by Iiritha on 11/14/2013 3:46 PM PST
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100 Troll Priest
12615
Worry when you begin to underheal.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
Worry when you begin to underheal.
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100 Human Paladin
12950
My guess is too many healers. Beyond that, essentially, the priority goes: Disc > Paladin > Druids > Shaman > Monk > Holy Priest.


Yeah pally overhealing kind of sucks. And 50% of my overhealing goes to... BEACON of light! Yay.

Overhealing doesn't matter though, as long as you're not going OOM who cares. It's unavoidable to account for AoE smart heals, HoT's and crits. I can crit for 350k or so with Divine Light, but I'm not risking letting a dps go below 50% health just because I MIGHT crit them, lol.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
To be fair, Overhealing but not going OOM can still be a problem if you're padding meters. For a clear example, run EF on Thok: it's definitely effective numerically, but SH is probably going to be more useful for the raid.

Gone are the days where minimising overhealing was something that people would heavily concern themselves with though.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
10275
11/14/2013 03:11 PMPosted by Lames
Would investing in more crit out weigh going for the next haste point?


Looked at the EJ Resto Shaman Guide, found here,

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/world-of-warcraft/shaman/resto-its-raining-heals-54-r89

which says:

For characters with 500 < gear ilvl < 530 : Intellect [= Spellpower] > Spirit >Haste at second riptide soft cap 5676 > Crit > Mastery rating


and then:
For characters with gear ilvl > 530 : Intellect [= Spellpower] > Spirit ( depending on your role in the raid ) >Haste at second Healing Rain soft cap 7613 > Crit > Mastery rating (~50%)


So it seems in your current Gear level reaching the Riptide Break then Crit, but in the future you should look at the HR break point and then Crit.

All that said, I think one of the things you need to look at with regard to these breaks and your gearing is the affect Crit has on your Mana regen. Namely, the fact Crit returns mana thru Resurgence. Essentially, the higher your Crit goes the less Spirit you'll need, which can then in turn be used for reaching those Haste Caps. So it seems to me to be a kinda, "all in", type of thing, where *if* your gear allows it, you trade all the spirit and mastery you can into Haste and Crit.

I don't know when that point is; all I hear from the Resto Shaman in my group is: "QQ, too much mastery, can't shed any more of it! I have too much Spirit! etc. etc."

I'd also look at using the Healing Stream Talent instead of conductivity. Passive Smart heals would probably help you snipe more on meters too. :P

edit: While I'm not sure about how up to date it is, all Restos should keep up with http://lifeingroup5.com/
Edited by Goobadin on 11/15/2013 5:31 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
11/14/2013 03:11 PMPosted by Lames
Would investing in more crit out weigh going for the next haste point?


Really depends on your heal selection. Crits alright, i ran high crit at the beginning of the expac for mana mostly, but now it is my third priority. Beautiful thing about shamans, is that there is no "right" way to do it.
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99 Troll Shaman
4415
Let me ask you this, original poster:

When is bad about overhealing? Does it do damage or mess with fight mechanics or otherwise cause your team to wipe?

Overhealing is a good thing, it means you are being more enthusiastic than other, less-overhealing players about keeping the raid alive!

At least, that's one way of looking at it. There is truly nothing bad about overhealing. If you have mana issues, it may be indicative that you could use smaller heals when players only need a light topping off, or that you should cancel a hardcast if you just got sniped, but you will know if this is the case best because it is obvious--staring at health bars, these things cannot go unnoticed by you.

Don't even look at Overhealing.
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Overhealing isn't inherently bad. You have to consider what your play is like. If you're really tight on mana on most fights, you obviously want to try and be as efficient as possible with your healing. Otherwise you might not have healing when you really need it. However, as gear progresses during an expansion, it becomes less and less of a problem, and overhealing no longer means you'll OOM, so it's less important to be efficient.

When you get to that point, which you seem to be at, your focus should shift from being efficient to being proactive. Keeping healing rain down to provide regular healing that doesn't eat up cast-time, having riptides rolling, using GHW and chain heal whenever it may be needed to get the most healing out that you can.

Obviously you have to hit a balance between max throughput and mana management. You can't just chain and rain to the exclusion of all else, because you will OOM yourself, but you can shift more one direction or the other depending on gear.

A simple way to see where you are. Go into a farm fight or LFR, see how long you can go doing a high healing rotation. Still try to be effective, but don't concern yourself with mana, and just see how far you can go before you OOM. If the fight ends first, try to heal harder until you have an idea for where your limits are. Then you have an idea for just how hard you can heal when you need to, and how conservative you need to be when it matters.
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90 Worgen Druid
13960
Overhealing hasn't been an issue since they removed down ranking.

Don't worry about your heals unless people are dying through no fault of their own.
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