It's called flex for a reason...

90 Tauren Druid
13205
11/19/2013 08:46 AMPosted by Thecheat
Boss and add health does not increase at "breakpoints." It literally increases for every player you add to the raid past 10 players

I don't think anyone has claimed that boss or add health have breakpoints. However, on Siege, when there are more people in the raid, it's common for people not to be able to solo the belt or for a tank to need ranged to help with the shredder. Their DPS doesn't go up, while those adds' health does. It's not a huge deal, but I usually do assign a second belt person and a ranged to help with the shredder.

11/19/2013 10:15 AMPosted by Naumu
At 19, you get another intermission phase on Garrosh.

Shows you've never paid attention to the fight, it's entirely based upon your DPS, like us, we only get one realm phase in 10-man due to our DPS.

I've had several people claim that, and it had actually lined up with my experiences so far with Flex (needing 4 phases with larger group, 3 with smaller). I've done flex with 10-25 people, perhaps it was merely coincidence, or that larger groups tend to carry a few more lower DPS so tend to need an additional transition. I haven't downed Garrosh yet, but in the pulls I've had on 10, we did have 3 transitions, while 25-man had 4. Still having issues with the MC's and Empowered Whirling adds.

I hadn't seen any official documentation about it, but I know that there is an additional pool for Malk, orb for Norushen, etc.

11/19/2013 01:16 PMPosted by Verraine
Look at the bright side: If the leader refuses to go until he gets 14 and refuses to take any more than 14, it's a clear signal that the leader's an idiot and the raid will likely suffer from his idiocy.

I haven't noticed groups that do the 10-only or 14-only being better or worse than other groups. I do tend to ask at the start so that if a friend wants to join later, I know whether or not it will be an issue. If I have friends who want to come from the start and they won't allow them because of the capacity limit (under 25), I just find or make another group.

Why do 550+ ilvl people que for flex anyways, are you that bored? Stop taking spots of people that need it. Disgusting example of the selfishness that is the WoW player base.

Make your own group. Don't allow anyone over 550 ilevel. There, nothing for you to complain about. ;) Seriously though, a lot of people who are 550+ ilevel can still use upgrades from Flex.
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90 Human Priest
20885
While it is indeed "flexible", having certain raid sizes allows you to manipulate the ratio of your damage dealers to healers to have more overall raid dps.

For example, at 14 players, we can have 2 tanks, 2 healers and 10 dps.

If we use the variable X to represent the amount of boss health increased for each new player we invite, it looks like this.

14X is the bosses health, we have 10 damage dealers who should each be responsible for 1.4X of the bosses health

For us to bring 17 or 18 people, we would likely need to up our healer roles to 3-4 healers. So now we have to invite 2 more healers, which increase the bosses health by X2, and also 2 more damage dealers which increases the bosses health by X2.

So now we have 18X as the bosses new health value, but our damage responsibility just jumped up to 1.5. Now each damage dealer is responsible to do more damage than they were before just for the sake of inviting more people.

So to give some examples by raid size- assuming all groups use 2 tanks, and a number of healers proportionate to the amount of increasing raid damage.

10- 6 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.6 damage responsibility by each DD.
11- 7 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.57 damage responsibility by each DD.
12- 8 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
13- 9 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.44 damage responsibility by each DD.
14- 10 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.4 damage responsibility by each DD.
15- 10 damage dealers, 3 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
16- 11 damage dealers, 3 healers and 2 tanks. 1.45 damage responsibility by each DD.
17- 11 damage dealers, 4 healers and 2 tanks. 1.54 damage responsibility by each DD.
18- 12 damage dealers, 4 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
19- 13 damage dealers, 4 healers and 2 tanks. 1.46 damage responsibility by each DD.
20- 13 damage dealers, 5 healers and 2 tanks. 1.53 damage responsibility by each DD.
21- 14 damage dealers, 5 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
22- 15 damage dealers, 5 healers and 2 tanks. 1.46 damage responsibility by each DD.
23- 16 damage dealers, 5 healers and 2 tanks. 1.43 damage responsibility by each DD.
24- 16 damage dealers, 6 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
25 - 17 damage dealers, 6 healers and 2 tanks. 1.47 damage responsibility by each DD.

So as you can see, having 14 damage dealers makes your damage proportionate to the amount of healers required the highest- adding more healers and more damage dealers requires more damage output by all damage dealers. The 2nd most desirable raid size would be 23 players, and so on. Why should I work harder just so someone else can come in, do 120k dps @ 540+ ilvl and make me pick up for their slack because I actually do between 220-350k? I only need 1-2 items from flex, why should I make my runs long and miserable for the sake of helping someone else get gear?
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
All your numbers are made up.
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100 Troll Druid
16715
I joined a Flex the other day for wing 4, it had about 13 people in it, and chucked my mate an invite. I am a 570 resto druid, he's a 570+ enhancement shaman.

They remove him because they need a tank and only want 14 people, so I left as well, I'm sure that losing two 570+ players was worth it to stay at the magic number.
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100 Human Paladin
14055
11/21/2013 07:13 PMPosted by Candescently
However, on Siege, when there are more people in the raid, it's common for people not to be able to solo the belt or for a tank to need ranged to help with the shredder.


The tank should *never* need help on the Shredder in either Flex or Normal, even on 25man. Even low DPS tanks like paladins shouldn't have issues. The main thing is getting 3 stacks of the debuff from the boss, then quickly (using a movement speed boost of some kind, every tank has some way to quickly move across the room), pick up the add and dps it hard. I only slowly drag it into something (usually fire). Wasting too much time moving it around is the number 1 culprit for it being alive too long. As soon as it lands, you should be able to finish it off quickly. But you're right that there are a lot of Flex tanks who don't do it correctly.
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100 Human Paladin
14055
While it is indeed "flexible", having certain raid sizes allows you to manipulate the ratio of your damage dealers to healers to have more overall raid dps.

For example, at 14 players, we can have 2 tanks, 2 healers and 10 dps.

If we use the variable X to represent the amount of boss health increased for each new player we invite, it looks like this.

14X is the bosses health, we have 10 damage dealers who should each be responsible for 1.4X of the bosses health

For us to bring 17 or 18 people, we would likely need to up our healer roles to 3-4 healers. So now we have to invite 2 more healers, which increase the bosses health by X2, and also 2 more damage dealers which increases the bosses health by X2.

So now we have 18X as the bosses new health value, but our damage responsibility just jumped up to 1.5. Now each damage dealer is responsible to do more damage than they were before just for the sake of inviting more people.

So to give some examples by raid size- assuming all groups use 2 tanks, and a number of healers proportionate to the amount of increasing raid damage.

10- 6 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.6 damage responsibility by each DD.
11- 7 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.57 damage responsibility by each DD.
12- 8 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
13- 9 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.44 damage responsibility by each DD.
14- 10 damage dealers, 2 healers and 2 tanks. 1.4 damage responsibility by each DD.
15- 10 damage dealers, 3 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
16- 11 damage dealers, 3 healers and 2 tanks. 1.45 damage responsibility by each DD.
17- 11 damage dealers, 4 healers and 2 tanks. 1.54 damage responsibility by each DD.
18- 12 damage dealers, 4 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
19- 13 damage dealers, 4 healers and 2 tanks. 1.46 damage responsibility by each DD.
20- 13 damage dealers, 5 healers and 2 tanks. 1.53 damage responsibility by each DD.
21- 14 damage dealers, 5 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
22- 15 damage dealers, 5 healers and 2 tanks. 1.46 damage responsibility by each DD.
23- 16 damage dealers, 5 healers and 2 tanks. 1.43 damage responsibility by each DD.
24- 16 damage dealers, 6 healers and 2 tanks. 1.5 damage responsibility by each DD.
25 - 17 damage dealers, 6 healers and 2 tanks. 1.47 damage responsibility by each DD.

So as you can see, having 14 damage dealers makes your damage proportionate to the amount of healers required the highest- adding more healers and more damage dealers requires more damage output by all damage dealers. The 2nd most desirable raid size would be 23 players, and so on. Why should I work harder just so someone else can come in, do 120k dps @ 540+ ilvl and make me pick up for their slack because I actually do between 220-350k? I only need 1-2 items from flex, why should I make my runs long and miserable for the sake of helping someone else get gear?


4 healers should be able to handle 25-man flex no problem. 5 healers MAX even if they're not great healers.

Also boss health doesn't scale exactly even with each player added. It's actually a logarithmic increase rather than a linear one. A 24-player flex boss has LESS THAN double the health of a 12 player flex boss, effectively making the 24-person version easier.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18120
While it is indeed "flexible", having certain raid sizes allows you to manipulate the ratio of your damage dealers to healers to have more overall raid dps.

Your calculations are overly simplistic. Blizzard intends flex mode to be inclusive - they don't want it be min-maxed like heroic mode. They want you to bring lots of friends. I'm pretty sure they've said they've designed it so as you bring more people there are modifiers that make it a little easier. By limiting the number of people you bring in you are probably just making it harder.
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I'm sure one of the larger reasons for 14 is because if you have more than 14 World of Logs counts it as LFR logs whereas 14 and lower keeps it at 10m normal for ranks. :D
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100 Human Warrior
21855
11/21/2013 07:13 PMPosted by Candescently
I don't think anyone has claimed that boss or add health have breakpoints.

This statement from page 2, which was directly above my post you quoted, implied a belief that there are breakpoints:
I'm not sure exactly what proportions the boss's health goes up at each breakpoint
Edited by Thecheat on 11/22/2013 8:31 AM PST
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90 Gnome Monk
0
Why do 550+ ilvl people que for flex anyways, are you that bored? Stop taking spots of people that need it. Disgusting example of the selfishness that is the WoW player base.


because......

trinkets.

be happy im there, doin 2-300k dps
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94 Human Death Knight
17830
11/22/2013 08:31 AMPosted by Thecheat
I don't think anyone has claimed that boss or add health have breakpoints.

This statement from page 2, which was directly above my post you quoted, implied a belief that there are breakpoints:
I'm not sure exactly what proportions the boss's health goes up at each breakpoint


Eh, I was told that that was the case by a source that's normally spot-on with that sort of thing, and I've only seen boss health at drastically different raid sizes, so I didn't have any of my own information to go on.

But you could also take that to mean mechanical breakpoints, too, which is still a fair question; I don't know how worthwhile it is it take 14 vs 15 people if at 15 you have more stuff to do. I always try to fill my raids, though.
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100 Orc Hunter
18845
11/19/2013 06:38 AMPosted by Hazmat
The playerbase believes that 15 enables super hard mega death mode


Actually, they believe that by hard-capping the raid at 14 members they prevent the health being increased for the boss and adds.


It has to do with additional raid mechanics. For example on Malkorok you get 4 void zones versus 3. You start to inherit mechanics from 25man once you go over 14.

I don't blame people who don't want to deal with that headache. Plus you can 2 heal most fights still with 14.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16750
People are idiots

/thread
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90 Tauren Druid
13205
11/22/2013 08:31 AMPosted by Thecheat
I don't think anyone has claimed that boss or add health have breakpoints.

This statement from page 2, which was directly above my post you quoted, implied a belief that there are breakpoints:
I'm not sure exactly what proportions the boss's health goes up at each breakpoint

I took that to mean that the boss/add health go up for each additional person, since there aren't multiple mechanic breakpoints for the same boss. I agree that the terminology is confusing, if so though. Add/boss health is a smooth (though not linear, more nearly logarithmic or exponential) function of the number of people in the raid.
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100 Human Priest
14765
I've been running Flex with this group from Openraid. The raid leader always tries to fill all 25 slots. I do find it easier with that many people than the <15 flex groups I had. You can accommodate various levels of skills, and room for mistakes and deaths.

When he pugged from oQueue for a Thok 25 Flex. Many of those joined via oQueue were surprised with the group size, and how easy the fight went.

However, I think it is also up to the raid leader, whether he's comfortable with leading so many people.
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Game Designer
At BlizzCon, we'd discussed some improvements to our Flexible scaling system that would minimize the existence and impact of any real or perceived "breakpoints." Our design goal has always been for the system to be neutral with respect to group size. Specifically, you should never feel encouraged to turn away interested players whose skill/gear level matches the rest of the group's, basic role composition constraints notwithstanding. But at the same time, you shouldn't feel like you need to go out and grab warm bodies if you have a perfectly serviceable raid already assembled. Clearly we have not yet fully realized those goals.

In general, the existing healing/damage scaling slightly favors larger groups, since boss health and damage scale up more slowly than does raid throughput. To use a specific example, an 18-player raid with 12 damage-dealers will kill a boss slightly faster than a 10-player raid with 6 damage-dealers (assuming equal skill/gear between the two groups). But it is true that currently some specific abilities exhibit breakpoints, where adding an extra player causes an extra add to spawn, or an ability to strike an additional target.

To help smooth out difficulty scaling as you add or remove players from your Flexible raid, we will be implementing one of our planned Warlords changes to the scaling system ahead of schedule. In the near future, several boss abilities that target more players as the size of a Flex raid increases will use weighted randomization rather than strict breakpoints.

An example to illustrate what I mean:

Today, Sun Tenderheart's Shadow Word: Bane ability afflicts 2 targets if your raid size is between 10 and 14, but begins to hit a third target at 15.

Once our upcoming change is in place, if you have a 13-player raid, there will be a 60% chance for each cast of the ability to hit 3 targets, and a 40% chance for it to hit 2. If you add an extra player, and thus have 14, there will now be an 80% chance for 3 debuffs to go out, and a 20% chance for only 2.

In short, with respect to this particular ability, adding an extra player will always give you an average of 0.2 extra Bane debuffs. No more breakpoints!

There will be a handful of exceptions where breakpoints remain necessary. Imprison on Sha of Pride is probably the most notable such example, where you really want to pre-plan who will cover which prisons, and having a random number of targets each cast would cause frustrating unpredictability.

There's nothing wrong with 14-player groups -- 14 players is a great size for a raid. But so is 15. And 19. And 12. And 22. We just want to help make sure that good players aren't being turned away from groups because of the notion that their presence will make things harder for everyone.
Edited by Watcher on 12/9/2013 5:40 PM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
12890
we love you, Ion!
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90 Worgen Warlock
15020
I definitely find that larger groups kill bosses faster.

As far as I could tell the math was something like needing another 90k dps for a 6minute fight if you add 1 more person (vague estimate). Anyway the point being that adding another member doing 120-150k dps just speeds things up significantly for the most part.

So yeah, I scratch my head at people wanting exactly 10 people and refusing to take more who are willing/geared/asking to go to Pug groups.
Edited by Justus on 12/9/2013 5:54 PM PST
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88 Human Paladin
11920
At BlizzCon, we'd discussed some improvements to our Flexible scaling system that would minimize the existence and impact of any real or perceived "breakpoints." Our design goal has always been for the system to be neutral with respect to group size. Specifically, you should never feel encouraged to turn away interested players whose skill/gear level matches the rest of the group's, basic role composition constraints notwithstanding. But at the same time, you shouldn't feel like you need to go out and grab warm bodies if you have a perfectly serviceable raid already assembled. Clearly we have not yet fully realized those goals.

In general, the existing healing/damage scaling slightly favors larger groups, since boss health and damage scale up more slowly than does raid throughput. To use a specific example, an 18-player raid with 12 damage-dealers will kill a boss slightly faster than a 10-player raid with 6 damage-dealers (assuming equal skill/gear between the two groups). But it is true that currently some specific abilities exhibit breakpoints, where adding an extra player causes an extra add to spawn, or an ability to strike an additional target.

To help smooth out difficulty scaling as you add or remove players from your Flexible raid, we will be implementing one of our planned Warlords changes to the scaling system ahead of schedule. In the near future, several boss abilities that target more players as the size of a Flex raid increases will use weighted randomization rather than strict breakpoints.

An example to illustrate what I mean:

Today, Sun Tenderheart's Shadow Word: Bane ability afflicts 2 targets if your raid size is between 10 and 14, but begins to hit a third target at 15.

Once our upcoming change is in place, if you have a 13-player raid, there will be a 60% chance for each cast of the ability to hit 3 targets, and a 40% chance for it to hit 2. If you add an extra player, and thus have 14, there will now be an 80% chance for 3 debuffs to go out, and a 20% chance for only 2.

In short, with respect to this particular ability, adding an extra player will always give you an average of 0.2 extra Bane debuffs. No more breakpoints!

There will be a handful of exceptions where breakpoints remain necessary. Imprison on Sha of Pride is probably the most notable such example, where you really want to pre-plan who will cover which prisons, and having a random number of targets each cast would cause frustrating unpredictability.

There's nothing wrong with 14-player groups -- 14 players is a great size for a raid. But so is 15. And 19. And 12. And 22. We just want to help make sure that good players aren't being turned away from groups because of the notion that their presence will make things harder for everyone.


I have a slight observation with the % base approach. No doubt unavoidable and most likely already considered but here it is.

Using your example but with Malkorok's debuff (Spread and dispel) during blood rage.

On 1st debuff the healers need to dispel 2 players but on the 2nd debuff (in same phase)they will need to dispel 3?

Or will it be standard per phase?
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