It's called flex for a reason...

90 Troll Shaman
8150
Just felt like I should point out that any flex that would not take someone based on a fear mechanics becoming to difficult due to scaling is not a flex that you want be a part of.
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100 Tauren Hunter
13800
Ive been pretty much just doing Garrosh for the BoA's for the past few weeks and for example on that fight if you go from 14 to 15 people you suddenly have 3 MC's to deal with.
That is annoying and usually wipes.
Now yes if you go to 25 people thats fine the added dps makes it up.
But if you only add 1-2 dps at that point is really becomes and issue.

Every single time ive done flex (any of them) with 14 or less it's been a cakewalk and barely any issues.
Soon as you go over up to 25 its been horrible.

Its hard enough to find 10 competent people, 25 is almost impossible in this age of timeless isle catchup ;P
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88 Human Paladin
11920
Ive been pretty much just doing Garrosh for the BoA's for the past few weeks and for example on that fight if you go from 14 to 15 people you suddenly have 3 MC's to deal with.
That is annoying and usually wipes.
Now yes if you go to 25 people thats fine the added dps makes it up.
But if you only add 1-2 dps at that point is really becomes and issue.

Every single time ive done flex (any of them) with 14 or less it's been a cakewalk and barely any issues.
Soon as you go over up to 25 its been horrible.

Its hard enough to find 10 competent people, 25 is almost impossible in this age of timeless isle catchup ;P


Funnily enough we have found that most of the fights are easier with more ppl. Provided those ppl are half competent.

Garrosh in particular is significantly easier with 15-20 than the bare minimum 10. The mechanics favor more ppl.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
2725
Gonna bookmark this now.

It's tough being the only voice of reason in a group going 15+
Edited by Havoc on 12/9/2013 6:48 PM PST
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88 Human Paladin
11920
Gonna bookmark this now.

It's tough being the only voice of reason in a group going 15+


Yeah. I really don't understand the 14 or less rubbish. Its so much easier on most fights with more. This has applied to Norms and Heroics for eons....
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20 Worgen Rogue
11580
Thank you so much for posting this, Ion.

Now, this has got to, somehow, become known by everyone who is in-game, and may not necessarily read the forums.
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100 Human Warrior
21090
Gonna bookmark this now.

It's tough being the only voice of reason in a group going 15+


Bingo.
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90 Human Death Knight
12130
At BlizzCon, we'd discussed some improvements to our Flexible scaling system that would minimize the existence and impact of any real or perceived "breakpoints." Our design goal has always been for the system to be neutral with respect to group size. Specifically, you should never feel encouraged to turn away interested players whose skill/gear level matches the rest of the group's, basic role composition constraints notwithstanding. But at the same time, you shouldn't feel like you need to go out and grab warm bodies if you have a perfectly serviceable raid already assembled. Clearly we have not yet fully realized those goals.

In general, the existing healing/damage scaling slightly favors larger groups, since boss health and damage scale up more slowly than does raid throughput. To use a specific example, an 18-player raid with 12 damage-dealers will kill a boss slightly faster than a 10-player raid with 6 damage-dealers (assuming equal skill/gear between the two groups). But it is true that currently some specific abilities exhibit breakpoints, where adding an extra player causes an extra add to spawn, or an ability to strike an additional target.

To help smooth out difficulty scaling as you add or remove players from your Flexible raid, we will be implementing one of our planned Warlords changes to the scaling system ahead of schedule. In the near future, several boss abilities that target more players as the size of a Flex raid increases will use weighted randomization rather than strict breakpoints.

An example to illustrate what I mean:

Today, Sun Tenderheart's Shadow Word: Bane ability afflicts 2 targets if your raid size is between 10 and 14, but begins to hit a third target at 15.

Once our upcoming change is in place, if you have a 13-player raid, there will be a 60% chance for each cast of the ability to hit 3 targets, and a 40% chance for it to hit 2. If you add an extra player, and thus have 14, there will now be an 80% chance for 3 debuffs to go out, and a 20% chance for only 2.

In short, with respect to this particular ability, adding an extra player will always give you an average of 0.2 extra Bane debuffs. No more breakpoints!

There will be a handful of exceptions where breakpoints remain necessary. Imprison on Sha of Pride is probably the most notable such example, where you really want to pre-plan who will cover which prisons, and having a random number of targets each cast would cause frustrating unpredictability.

There's nothing wrong with 14-player groups -- 14 players is a great size for a raid. But so is 15. And 19. And 12. And 22. We just want to help make sure that good players aren't being turned away from groups because of the notion that their presence will make things harder for everyone.


Honestly a system like that is just going to encourage a group to roll with as few members as possible to give them the lowest possible chance of getting any extra bad stuff.
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
when are people going to learn raids are easier with more people, more raid cooldowns, less people to carry, can dedicate individuals to tasks (ie: monks kiting garrosh adds), and generally less responsibility on the individual.

this is true in ANY format, flex all the way up to heroic.

more people = easier, by design.
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90 Pandaren Monk
17665
when are people going to learn raids are easier with more people, more raid cooldowns, less people to carry, can dedicate individuals to tasks (ie: monks kiting garrosh adds), and generally less responsibility on the individual.

this is true in ANY format, flex all the way up to heroic.

more people = easier, by design.


Can you just quit already?
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90 Orc Monk
LD
16865
How can I get it into people's heads that its called "Flex mode," not "14-man" mode? I'm sick of not being able to join groups or even getting kicked from groups because the leader refuses to have a 15th person. Everyone seems convinced that when you get 15 people it becomes a 25 man raid, when this is simply not the case. It becomes a 15 man raid, simple as that. Add one more, and its a 16 man, hence the little flag on our minimap that says the amount of players for the difficulty.


The funniest thing about this is the only fight that really changes is Malkorok and soaking zones and of course the amount of health conveyor belt items have.

Outside of those 2 fights 10 vs 25 is exactly the same instance.
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100 Human Warrior
21090
Outside of those 2 fights 10 vs 25 is exactly the same instance.


No dude, those Flex groups are going to absolutely fall apart if they get that third Imprison on Sha of Pride! You clearly don't know what you're talking about!

Said no one ever. Well, maybe the terrible Flex leaders we've seen doing these things...
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MVP - Technical Support
100 Human Warrior
19610
At BlizzCon, we'd discussed some improvements to our Flexible scaling system that would minimize the existence and impact of any real or perceived "breakpoints." Our design goal has always been for the system to be neutral with respect to group size. Specifically, you should never feel encouraged to turn away interested players whose skill/gear level matches the rest of the group's, basic role composition constraints notwithstanding. But at the same time, you shouldn't feel like you need to go out and grab warm bodies if you have a perfectly serviceable raid already assembled. Clearly we have not yet fully realized those goals.

In general, the existing healing/damage scaling slightly favors larger groups, since boss health and damage scale up more slowly than does raid throughput. To use a specific example, an 18-player raid with 12 damage-dealers will kill a boss slightly faster than a 10-player raid with 6 damage-dealers (assuming equal skill/gear between the two groups). But it is true that currently some specific abilities exhibit breakpoints, where adding an extra player causes an extra add to spawn, or an ability to strike an additional target.

To help smooth out difficulty scaling as you add or remove players from your Flexible raid, we will be implementing one of our planned Warlords changes to the scaling system ahead of schedule. In the near future, several boss abilities that target more players as the size of a Flex raid increases will use weighted randomization rather than strict breakpoints.

An example to illustrate what I mean:

Today, Sun Tenderheart's Shadow Word: Bane ability afflicts 2 targets if your raid size is between 10 and 14, but begins to hit a third target at 15.

Once our upcoming change is in place, if you have a 13-player raid, there will be a 60% chance for each cast of the ability to hit 3 targets, and a 40% chance for it to hit 2. If you add an extra player, and thus have 14, there will now be an 80% chance for 3 debuffs to go out, and a 20% chance for only 2.

In short, with respect to this particular ability, adding an extra player will always give you an average of 0.2 extra Bane debuffs. No more breakpoints!

There will be a handful of exceptions where breakpoints remain necessary. Imprison on Sha of Pride is probably the most notable such example, where you really want to pre-plan who will cover which prisons, and having a random number of targets each cast would cause frustrating unpredictability.

There's nothing wrong with 14-player groups -- 14 players is a great size for a raid. But so is 15. And 19. And 12. And 22. We just want to help make sure that good players aren't being turned away from groups because of the notion that their presence will make things harder for everyone.

This is why Ion could never have a twitter.
Edited by Omegal on 12/9/2013 9:41 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Paladin
17180
My guild runs a flex run twice a week along with our 2 normal raid teams. The flex has cleared through Thok. I generally don't make the flex, but we have had anywhere from 15-24 people. We don't care about the number, just that people know what they are doing and are at least somewhat geared.

The point of flex to us is to play with good people and have fun. Attendance is high not just with our own guild members, but several other guilds that join in on our runs because they have a blast.

Hopefully you can find a similar situation on your server if you just look around a bit.
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
when are people going to learn raids are easier with more people, more raid cooldowns, less people to carry, can dedicate individuals to tasks (ie: monks kiting garrosh adds), and generally less responsibility on the individual.

this is true in ANY format, flex all the way up to heroic.

more people = easier, by design.


Can you just quit already?


truth hurts?

its ok, if you want a challenge, 10's are always an option. until then, rely on the crutches that are multiple battle rez's, raid cooldowns, and cheesing of mechanics that 25 affords you.

the ONLY thing harder about 25, is getting 15 more people to log on. that is it. 10's have to do the same content with crappier gear (remember, there is no warforged pinata in 10), and have far less room for mistakes.

in any case, this is a non issue next xpac. so who cares. we can finally separate the men from the boys, with the "warforged incentive" going away.
Edited by Sanctifìed on 12/9/2013 9:52 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Warrior
16590
Did a 25-man raid bully you in high school or something
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11585
people on my server want ya be itemlvl 450+ for any part of wings on my server for flex, most only care about less better on my server idea for flex and higher item lvl = better chance.
Both so very wrong becease i seen people have better gear and suck badly.
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92 Draenei Mage
14555
Whats hilarious is that I've seen a flex group that thought it was at 14 that everything changed, and that 13 was the magic number.

So they failed at getting it wrong. :P
Edited by Myralata on 12/9/2013 11:33 PM PST
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100 Worgen Death Knight
17500
truth hurts?

its ok, if you want a challenge, 10's are always an option. until then, rely on the crutches that are multiple battle rez's, raid cooldowns, and cheesing of mechanics that 25 affords you.

the ONLY thing harder about 25, is getting 15 more people to log on. that is it. 10's have to do the same content with crappier gear (remember, there is no warforged pinata in 10), and have far less room for mistakes.

in any case, this is a non issue next xpac. so who cares. we can finally separate the men from the boys, with the "warforged incentive" going away.


i disagree, 10s this tier seem to be dropping a relatively decent number of warforged pieces
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