It's called flex for a reason...

100 Human Paladin
16395
There will be a handful of exceptions where breakpoints remain necessary. Imprison on Sha of Pride is probably the most notable such example, where you really want to pre-plan who will cover which prisons, and having a random number of targets each cast would cause frustrating unpredictability.


In this case, couldn't you just make boss hp gain less when number of mechanics increase?

ie, for Sha of Pride (make up numbers):
14 ppl, boss hp = 300M, 2 sha prisons
15 ppl, boss hp = 325M, 2 sha prisons
16 ppl, boss hp = 325M, 3 sha prisons
17 ppl, boss hp = 350M, 3 sha prisons

That way, additional sha prison difficulty from 15 to 16 is offset by not having boss HP gains?
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90 Night Elf Druid
9280


Can you just quit already?


truth hurts?


Sanctified we miss you on the arena forums please come back !11111!!!
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90 Tauren Warrior
2655
I use oQueue to lead flex raids and I will literally kick anyone who says something stupid such as "once you have 15 everything is scaled as if you had 25" as their lack of knowledge is clearly a huge indication they are a bad player.

However; there are certain breakpoints that MUST be met otherwise you will look like a bad raid leader making your fights unnecessarily harder, but 14 is not the magic number. For example on Malkorok you want 13 people as that will give you three puddles whereas 14 gives you four puddles. Since people are so stupid you need a small group for this in order to kick the ranged DPS who refuse to stand in their two puddles or the baddies who refuse to learn simple mechanics and die to Breath of Yashir.
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90 Human Monk
4180
Ion, based on your performance at Blizzcon and posts like this methinks the spotlight is shifting from Greg to you. Put on your raid gear, bro and step into the mosh pit. The community needs the crisp detailed explanations you are so fond of. Just be sure that your gear is enchanted with bonuses to frustration mitigation. The crowd is wont to squeeze you to death out of love.

Wishing you continued great success.

- Haf
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11850
I get how this will work for thing like the debuff mentioned in the blue post but will this also apply to other mechanics like Orbs on Norushen?

It is nice to be able to plan ahead for how many Orbs you will get and assign groups to deal with them. If you might get 2 or 3 that changes the approach and increases the raid leaders stress to adjust on the fly.
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100 Gnome Mage
20060
I'm mixed on this weighted randomization system. Ultimately it's the best solution, but careful thought has to be given to what makes more sense as an exception, and hopefully that RNG isn't the cause of too many wipes. Consistent encounter design is preferable when possible, and it's a lower difficulty after all. The new normal modes [WoD heroics] will need to be tuned more tightly though and we need some kind of model in place. We truly needed to combat the notion of breakpoints in order to see bigger raid groups.

100% agree with continuing to make fights easier as you bring more people. Social raiding ftw. The main thing raid leaders should be concerned about is whether or not their healers can handle the influx of DPS that want to come, aside from that, I don't believe RLs should aim for certain breakpoints. If we find that weighted randomization is what overwhelms groups on certain fights, adjustments can be made on live.
Edited by Digerati on 12/10/2013 1:52 PM PST
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100 Troll Rogue
17115
12/09/2013 09:40 PMPosted by Omegal
This is why Ion could never have a twitter.


I actually like it that he braves the D&R forums when he has something to say, kudos to him for that.
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90 Pandaren Monk
17665
so at "16 people we start getting a 25% chance of a 4th mechanic, so 15 man it is" logic will take over instead of "at 15 he gains more health"

Breakpoints are always going to exist with this model, and it means that any flex style raid can't be made serious because of it.
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90 Orc Warrior
12780
more rng to deal with
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100 Draenei Paladin
10400
lol u r elite bruuuuuuuuuuh
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. We don't care about the number, just that people know what they are doing and are at least somewhat geared.


Don't we all just wish that everyone who is hired for a job, inherently knows what to do! They just walk in the doors after being hired but having never before havewalked through those doors and they know where everything is, all the nuances of every individual, they some how just know which female is one that will start yelling sexual abuse ot which guy will yel it's not in my job description. They'll know how to hush a distraut boss that's in their face adn they will automatically know where the break room and water fountain is.

Well guess what! That isn't reality.

Now if all you want are people that you've been with since day one and learned everything with in the game, then flex isn't for you. Flex seems to have been made for those folks that didn't get to or don't have an opportunity to get into full blown, and a whole lot harder full raids. And it's made to where the more people in it, the easier it is to do. But every day, I see and hear people getting turned down. Why! Mostly because so many people don't want a challenge like they have been whining about in the forums and claiming they do, but rather want a face wipe scenario. ''

Blizzard still has LFR set to having to have a ilevel of 460. That's it man! 460 and you can pug into some raid. Blizz also has dumbed down the game so much, that now it's easy to get to 485 -490 ilevel. Man! at this level a person isn't far off from hitting the top Ilevel anyway. Since flex raids seem to be far easier than full raids and full raids only require 460 ilvel gear, then as far as I can see;' THERE IS NO REASON TO OMIT ANY LVL 90 with a I LEVEL ABOVE 460 period. Don't they deserve the gear too? Of course they won't know it! Why! Because they aren't that dream thing I typed about above. They, like everyone, needs to have hands on learning. Give it to them! This is my new crusade. That is all.

I laugh every time I see the news and see a catastrophe showing where people come together to help the hurt and homeless. WHY! Because the people of the Game of World of Warcraft and other things in life have shown to me, the very true colors of the human species and they are not what the news wants others to believe. Sure they may help that homeless or hurt, but they carry a blade behind their back and they always have a ulterior self serving motive.
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90 Human Hunter
12595
I wish Flex was just a bit more flexible and could accommodate something like a 6 or 7 players minimum instead of 10.
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100 Draenei Priest
9515
Don't we all just wish that everyone who is hired for a job

Was going to comment on your bad analogy...

but then:
12/14/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Aelka
Since flex raids seem to be far easier than full raids and full raids only require 460 ilvel gear, then as far as I can see;' THERE IS NO REASON TO OMIT ANY LVL 90 with a I LEVEL ABOVE 460 period.
[4]
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100 Worgen Druid
12635
12/14/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Aelka
Since flex raids seem to be far easier than full raids and full raids only require 460 ilvel gear,


You mean the ones that came out over a year ago?

12/14/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Aelka
THERE IS NO REASON TO OMIT ANY LVL 90 with a I LEVEL ABOVE 460 period.


I unno, I think being 40-50 ilvls below the recommended ilvl is a good enough reason.
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90 Undead Death Knight
11910
I personally say no because if I let one person bring their guildy/friend then everyone and their mom wants to, and before I know it I'm at a 25 man raid when I really only wanted to have a smaller raid (IE:10-15ish players) because it's a bit easier to manage and keep track of in a pug setting. Such as, making sure everyone is in vent, people aren't blowing raid cd's uselessly, ect.

IMO, probably a lot of pug leaders feel the same way.
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100 Draenei Monk
13620
to be blunt if I see a group stopping at 14 I drop asap because its not worth the time to explain why that is such a bad idea on a difficulty that's easier than reg where most of the fights are faceroll on that difficulty...
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90 Troll Druid
10195
so at "16 people we start getting a 25% chance of a 4th mechanic, so 15 man it is" logic will take over instead of "at 15 he gains more health"

Breakpoints are always going to exist with this model, and it means that any flex style raid can't be made serious because of it.


I actually think that the breakpoints will not be at 15 but at 11, 16, 21. If I remember correctly they are also implementing a chance for the boss to drop an extra piece of loot. (11 will have a 10% chance to have an extra puddle, but also a 10% chance to drop an extra piece of loot). This means that everyone will bring 1 over a breakpoint for 10% chance at extra loot, in exchange for more risk in mechanics. And now we're back to the same issue. For as long as people are bad, there will always be breakpoints.

Flex is supposed to be about inviting anyone who wants to come, regardless of spec. You want 4 tanks, sure DPS requirements are low, you want to bring 5 healers to flex, sure you can just cast wrath, you want to bring 21 DPS, be my guest the healing requirement is so low you can almost Druid Wrath spam it.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12265
I think the reality is that people on WoW just don't want to use any real logic when it comes to stuff like team building. WoW has conditioned its players to seek out highest rewards for the least effort input.

The only way to break the threshold myths is to really ramp up the incentive taking 25ppl.

No way around the fact that is it harder to manage 25 people then it is 14. You will build your raid twice as fast, you will communicate faster, you will get less random AFK's with 14, etc...Its really all the same reasons we now see more 10m teams than we do 25m teams.

The players now inherently want to work in smaller groups.

So if you want people to bring in as many people to their flex raids as possible then make it the most favorable to take 25.

example: make each persons chance for loot to drop increase by 0.5% for every player in the raid over 10. The incentive would then be to hold out for a full 25 people.

You could get people to over look any perceived "break points" if you just give them a tastier carrot to chase.
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100 Draenei Priest
9515
make each persons chance for loot to drop increase by 0.5% for every player in the raid over 10. The incentive would then be to hold out for a full 25 people.

Aren't they already considering this? Or at the very least Warforged/gem/tertiary drops increasing proportional to raid size?
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