How do you like this new marksman tree?

85 Dwarf Hunter
6065

You have seen the posts about the MM tree right in the beta forums as well as the damage dealing, and the actual hunter forums as well.. Marksman tree is WAY behind the others in terms of DPS..

Why is it behind? We have a talent for an ability which isn't used by a MM hunter (resistance is futile). We don't have any actual +damage or +crit +haste talents that aren't conditional to a bosses health or to you standing still and following a boring as hell 2steady, xx, 2 steady, xx, 2steady, xx.. That wears on people, EVEN THOUGH there will be a best rotation out there whenever someone does the math on it.

My problem is not only that the MM tree has BM talents and no real 100% across the board buffs to MM, but it's WAY behind the other two specs at 85.


Your problem is that Hunters have no rotations anymore. It is not as simple as: SrS, CS, AS, SS x4 repeat. And i've used rotations as MM that puts CS on CD, dumps Focus with AS, spams SS till CS comes up and throws in AS when it procs. I've also seen people that got SSx2 and then dumps AS.. they both do mathematically the same DPS, and i'm sure there are many other possible combinations.

If you think BM or Surv is outdpsing MM at 80, you're crazy and there is not anywhere CLOSE to reputable dps simulations going on in Beta, there is no provable way to show which spec is the best at 85.

Fact is in MM you're going to do more damage in the first 20% and the last 20% of a fight. OH NOES!!! Notice how everyone in this thread disagrees with you, how noone on this forum or other forums even mention the talents themselves? Hint: it's not because you're solving something 11 million people and blizzcon missed.


whoa whoa.. Back up... MM Hunters do to have a rotation right now, and in beta. Survival is more of a priority system like it has been, and I refuse to raid as a BM hunter since I like to do my own dps but saying there is no rotation is not true at all.

The reason you see "comparable" DPS on MM is because of Wild Quiver, auto shot, and pet damage. I did hours and hours and hours of testing and number crunching on the littlest changes like "should I wait for chimera if there was no Aimed proc or should I put in a 3rd steady" among other subtle nuances. I'll say this, there is MUCH MUCH more room on the MM tree for someone to slack off and still do comparable DPS than there used to, and small changes in rotation will still give you losses if you aren't following it, it's just not as noticeable. Believe me.. This coming from hours upon hours of testing.

My whole gripe has got nothing to do with focus or whatever.. I don't mind it. PVP sucks, but I use my Rogue, DK or Warlock to PVP since they are much better at it.

My gripe has to do with MM damage at level 85 in PVE raids, and how all our shots seem to do about the same damage as one another.

And this is my biggest issue.. The hunter doesn't do his own damage anymore. It's like we are there as an afterthought being that our top 3 abilities happen whether or not we are actually doing anything. I don't like that. I want to do my own DPS. I am a damn good hunter, and have played this char as my main for 5+ years.. I enjoyed that I did most of my own damage.. Now I think I control about 40-50% of my total dps myself.
Edited by Pyropete on 11/17/2010 9:34 PM PST
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85 Goblin Hunter
2925
I'm sorry Pyro, but seeing as all I see you do on these forums is complain about how much you are sucking at PvE and how much you get rolled at PvP I think I'm going to have to not believe in your testing because (and I don't mean to offend) but I don't think you are good enough at your hunter to trust in your testing. That is why I wouldn't do testing, because I'm not good enough at my hunter for the results to be trustworthy.

I am sorry. It is nothing personal. Seriously.
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85 Dwarf Hunter
6065
I'm sorry Pyro, but seeing as all I see you do on these forums is complain about how much you are sucking at PvE and how much you get rolled at PvP I think I'm going to have to not believe in your testing because (and I don't mean to offend) but I don't think you are good enough at your hunter to trust in your testing. That is why I wouldn't do testing, because I'm not good enough at my hunter for the results to be trustworthy.

I am sorry. It is nothing personal. Seriously.


I think you are not understanding at all. Not even a little. Like I said above, my gripe is with MM talents, all our shots being indistinguishable than the next, and not being able to do my own DPS. I am a good hunter. I think I am even still on WOL as a ranked hunter in quite a few ICC and H ICC fights. My numbers are tested and true when I post them. I won't post numbers unless I have checked and double checked.

Personally I think you are so blinded by your love for your hunter that you can't tell when something stinks. Take it from a 5+ year hunter main... Hunters are stinking right now.
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85 Goblin Hunter
2925
I'm sorry Pyro, but seeing as all I see you do on these forums is complain about how much you are sucking at PvE and how much you get rolled at PvP I think I'm going to have to not believe in your testing because (and I don't mean to offend) but I don't think you are good enough at your hunter to trust in your testing. That is why I wouldn't do testing, because I'm not good enough at my hunter for the results to be trustworthy.

I am sorry. It is nothing personal. Seriously.


I think you are not understanding at all. Not even a little. Like I said above, my gripe is with MM talents, all our shots being indistinguishable than the next, and not being able to do my own DPS. I am a good hunter. I think I am even still on WOL as a ranked hunter in quite a few ICC and H ICC fights. My numbers are tested and true when I post them. I won't post numbers unless I have checked and double checked.

Personally I think you are so blinded by your love for your hunter that you can't tell when something stinks. Take it from a 5+ year hunter main... Hunters are stinking right now.


Like I've said before:

It is more likely that 5+ year hunters would complain about changes than a fairly new hunter would. Why? Because the more you are used to things being a certain way, the harder it is to change.

Hunter mechanics weren't that hard for me to adjust to because I'd only been 80 for about a month before 4.0.1 dropped. Yeah, that first weekend or two after the patch were impossible for me to PvP in. Now, not so bad.

The talents in the MM tree aren't that bad, but if you don't like them why don't you try another spec? I'd recommend SV :D
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85 Dwarf Hunter
6065

whoa whoa.. Back up... MM Hunters do to have a rotation right now, and in beta. Survival is more of a priority system like it has been, and I refuse to raid as a BM hunter since I like to do my own dps but saying there is no rotation is not true at all.

The reason you see "comparable" DPS on MM is because of Wild Quiver, auto shot, and pet damage. I did hours and hours and hours of testing and number crunching on the littlest changes like "should I wait for chimera if there was no Aimed proc or should I put in a 3rd steady" among other subtle nuances. I'll say this, there is MUCH MUCH more room on the MM tree for someone to slack off and still do comparable DPS than there used to, and small changes in rotation will still give you losses if you aren't following it, it's just not as noticeable. Believe me.. This coming from hours upon hours of testing.


Learn the definition of a Rotation vs. a Priority system, because almost every class now works off priorty or flow chart systems to do there DPS. MM hunters work on a system of "If X then Y, If not then Z" whereas a rotation is a precise unflinching unchanging order of an exact number of attacks at an exact timing sequence which cannot work at all on a fluctuating resource system.

It is impossible to know right now which spec is the best at 85, without tests what the best spec is. One can only make mildly educated guesses and conjecture. Also simulators who have sample sizes of tens of thousands of hours prove you wrong.

The fact why you dislike Survival or BM is pretty laughable to me. It's almost as if you choose not to play BM due to social stigma rather then any reasonable dislike for the spec as a whole, rather then making a silly, ridiculous comment that BM hunters themselves do not do any DPS compared to your pets (which is baseless and explains how unscientific you really are) I highly doubt you ever 'number crunched' more then play with a Test Dummy for a few hours.


Are you even reading what I write? I said I like to do MY OWN damage.. I never said I wouldn't play survival. In fact I said in other threads that I was going to play survival at 85.. Survival has a priority system in beta and it has one now. BM on the other hand no.. I want to do my own damage. I don't want it a 50-50 split on damage between me and the pet. Do you even have a hunter? Seriously.. Post on him. I want to see if it's even worth talking to you because it sounds like you are grasping at straws and the other fanboys will agree with you because they are blind as well.

serpent-chimera-arcanex2-stdyx2-arcanex2-steadyx2-chimera-stdyx2-arcanex2-stdyx3(x2 if there is an aimed shot proc)-chimera-stdyx2-arcanex2. I think you are getting priority mixed up with rotation. Because that above is a rotation + aimed shot procs.
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85 Dwarf Hunter
6065
I'm sorry Pyro, but seeing as all I see you do on these forums is complain about how much you are sucking at PvE and how much you get rolled at PvP I think I'm going to have to not believe in your testing because (and I don't mean to offend) but I don't think you are good enough at your hunter to trust in your testing. That is why I wouldn't do testing, because I'm not good enough at my hunter for the results to be trustworthy.

I am sorry. It is nothing personal. Seriously.


I think you are not understanding at all. Not even a little. Like I said above, my gripe is with MM talents, all our shots being indistinguishable than the next, and not being able to do my own DPS. I am a good hunter. I think I am even still on WOL as a ranked hunter in quite a few ICC and H ICC fights. My numbers are tested and true when I post them. I won't post numbers unless I have checked and double checked.

Personally I think you are so blinded by your love for your hunter that you can't tell when something stinks. Take it from a 5+ year hunter main... Hunters are stinking right now.


I checked your WoL fights, you do on average more dps then the rest of the Hunters in most of your fights and are never below top 6 in most fights unless they dispise Hunters. Most of the time you are top 5 or higher, yet your other Hunter mates are within comparable dps of you by 1k or less.

I would hardly consider you ranking in ICC/H ICC fights, mostly performing at a average optimal level for a H geared Hunter. You are hardly suffering at the bottom of the meters, I highly doubt you are losing your raid spot, and nothing will change in Cata, except that pures are expected to out DPS hybrids once FACTUAL raid data has been gathered LIVE.


Not now I don't I said I used to.. My DPS dropped because I was a full ArP hunter. I was pulling 16-18k on standstill fights the week before the change.. Look it up.

Anyhow, my thread got trolled by a bunch of hunter fanboys and some that probably don't even have hunters. GG. Night.
Edited by Pyropete on 11/17/2010 9:53 PM PST
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85 Goblin Hunter
2925
Anyhow, my thread got trolled by a bunch of hunter fanboys and some that probably don't even have hunters. GG. Night.


So because I enjoy the hunter as it is I am a hunter fanboy?

Actually, that makes sense. I am a fan of the hunter.

However, to get to my point: just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they're trolls.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16925
Yeah, that's one point to keep in mind. The tree you made is representing pre-4.0 Trees, with many flat DPS increases. Blizz said they wanted to remove most of the boring cookie-cutter flat % increases and add more utility, procs, etc (improved steady, Marked for Death, Resistance is Futile, etc).

Also, by Blizzard's standpoint, the trees are currently fine. Ghostcrawler said that the goal at 85 was to not have one or two classes way out in front, but to have all of the classes near the top of the tree. For example, if all dps classes/specs were able to pull within 500 dps of each other,that's good. Currently on the Beta, things are pretty close to that. I imagine at 85 things will be initialy off-balance, but Blizz will tweak it.
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85 Troll Death Knight
8085
I think you missed the point of how talent trees are designed now :\

Almost all the passive talents that don't do anything except increase X by Y% are pretty much gone. Talents are supposed to be more fun, interactive and situational.
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
10655
I think you are not understanding at all. Not even a little. Like I said above, my gripe is with MM talents, all our shots being indistinguishable than the next, and not being able to do my own DPS. I am a good hunter. I think I am even still on WOL as a ranked hunter in quite a few ICC and H ICC fights. My numbers are tested and true when I post them. I won't post numbers unless I have checked and double checked.

Personally I think you are so blinded by your love for your hunter that you can't tell when something stinks. Take it from a 5+ year hunter main... Hunters are stinking right now.


+5 year hunter main as well. I don't believe they are sucking. Does that mean I am right? No. Does it mean you are right? No. That is strictly an opinionated statement.
You have every right to state you are unhappy with the changes. However, what kind of response were you looking for when your original post sounds like you want to rile things up in the community?
my gripe is with MM talents, all our shots being indistinguishable than the next, and not being able to do my own DPS.

I'm not quite understanding this statement. Unable to do your own DPS?

Also if this is for level 85, SV has been proven to be the top dps in raids.
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85 Dwarf Hunter
8585
Here's my edited version of what you started.
http://www.war-tools.com/t71213.html
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