DK Tanks : DW vs 2H

85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
Without ToT. . . .



This was incorrect, but as it is a moot point now with the coming changes and proof of LL's numbers with them, I will not go into it again. You can scroll up and read why it was able to keep up before but will not be able to after.
Edited by Kalle on 11/18/2010 10:48 PM PST
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300
Without ToT. . . .

2-handers have 30% more DPS than 1 handers. They also have 37.5% slower swing speed, making them hit even harder. This means that your Death Strikes, Heart Strikes, and Rune strikes will be hitting around 79% harder as 2H vs. DW. There's no way you can overcome that type of deficit.
That's not at all an accurate difference in damage, but your heart is in the right place.

The only possible advantage to Dual Wielding is being able to reforge away 3% of the hit you have on gear (or not reforge to get it and keep avoidance) and it's not yet clear if that's actually possible with the gear that exists.
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85 Orc Warrior
8720
Im sure theres a quota on 1h Dk tanking threads per week.

This arguement is beyond beating a dead horse, just let this RIP.

1h tanking is no longer supported. Don't be like the "can we still be firends" guy after getting dumped. It's demeaning to you, over is over.

Blizzard's whole purpose behind the 31 pt talent tree is to guide players away from sub optimal specs/ set ups.
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85 Dwarf Warrior
6140
This saddens me. If they're going to put in tanking 1h weapon enchants then they need to support DW tanking builds.

Choosing to DW tank shouldn't be a sacrifice. It should be a trade off.


Are you talking about 1 hand weapon enchants for tanks? In which case those would be fore Paladin's and Warriors. Or are you talking about 1 hand runes for DK's only? In which case are they leaving in that carapace one as a tanking rune or taking it out?

if they leave the 1 hand rune for DK weapons, yeah that seems kind of dumb. If they have taken that out then it seems fairly obvious that they are steering far clear of DW DK tanks because they always use runes on their weapons and never use regular enchants.
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85 Draenei Warrior
9495
let them leave it in. DKs need toys too!
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90 Undead Warrior
10190
2 Handers.

Without the deep talents in Frost, DW will not be competitive in terms of threat, and yes, that absolutely counts if your job is to build threat by doing damage. Also, DW generally needs higher investment in +hit to deliver competitive damage. Now that blue gems are hit or stamina, which do you think a tank ought to be stacking? Yeah.
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90 Tauren Warrior
10125
Hmmmm...

That's actually very interesting, that a 2H has a lot more stamina than 2 1 handers combined of the same ilevel. I wonder if this is just a case of the 1h I linked have more stats devoted to avoidance/mastery or something. Otherwise it becomes a potential scaling problem if Druids+DKs get a good chunk of extra stamina with their one weapon than Paladins and Warriors do with their sword+board.

Actually, do shields have excess stamina or such? That might make the balance.
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85 Draenei Warrior
9495
two 1 handers have 54/64ths the stats of a 2 hander.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Even at cataclysm levels, it's not a huge difference. You're missing out on maybe a few hundred hit points a level 85 - a drop in the bucket compared to health pool sizes.

Plus, I'm fairly certain blizzard balances classes around the gear they're expected to be using.
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90 Orc Warrior
10130
The only possible advantage to Dual Wielding is being able to reforge away 3% of the hit you have on gear (or not reforge to get it and keep avoidance) and it's not yet clear if that's actually possible with the gear that exists.


Wouldn't you get more rune procs from Rune Strikes, too?

In theory, I guess?
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90 Tauren Warrior
10125
82 stamina doesn't seem so minor, it's basically a metagem's worth of stamina before HP scaling's even considered. And again, the gap would grow a bit with each tier level...

Oh well, it certainly is minor compared to the other stuff though so I won't belabor the point.
>:P
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300
The only possible advantage to Dual Wielding is being able to reforge away 3% of the hit you have on gear (or not reforge to get it and keep avoidance) and it's not yet clear if that's actually possible with the gear that exists.


Wouldn't you get more rune procs from Rune Strikes, too?

In theory, I guess?
Why would Dual Wielding give me more procs from RE?
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80 Night Elf Death Knight
1840
The only possible advantage to Dual Wielding is being able to reforge away 3% of the hit you have on gear (or not reforge to get it and keep avoidance) and it's not yet clear if that's actually possible with the gear that exists.


Wouldn't you get more rune procs from Rune Strikes, too?

In theory, I guess?
Why would Dual Wielding give me more procs from RE?


More autoattacks = more RP from 3/3 SoB rather than 2/3 = more RS = more RE procs?
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85 Troll Priest
3245
82 stamina doesn't seem so minor, it's basically a metagem's worth of stamina before HP scaling's even considered. And again, the gap would grow a bit with each tier level...

Oh well, it certainly is minor compared to the other stuff though so I won't belabor the point.
>:P


Yeah, the stat differences really are minor in the long run at 85 when you factor in everything else. I guess you could say that the prime aspect of a 2her is the extra threat and dps, but if neither of them are too important then in a different light that means that one can DW tank w/o too much an issue.

I guess that does satisfy the 'available but likely sub-optimal' comments GC was making regarding DW Blood in Cata, heh.
Edited by Rihk on 11/20/2010 1:40 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
Wouldn't you get more rune procs from Rune Strikes, too?

In theory, I guess?


Yeah, but considering that we're already average <6 seconds between Death Strikes, the difference is pretty minimal. A quick and dirty sim is suggesting that you get about one Death Strike every 2 minutes extra (using the defaults, that's about a 1% damage reduction) if you dual wield slow/fast. That didn't take into account the stamina loss (or the avoidance gain) from using different weapons though, so it's not a clear cut win there.
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300
Why would Dual Wielding give me more procs from RE?


More autoattacks = more RP from 3/3 SoB rather than 2/3 = more RS = more RE procs?
The amount of extra RP you get from dual wielding with 3/3 SoB is actually borderline unnoticeable, as Anothriel explained. D:
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85 Human Warrior
4925
Kalle, to my understanding 1Handers still offered the same Stam/Avoidance as 2Handers if DWed, simply because of the fact that we retained the old 1h tanking rune, and fast 1handers will remain in the game for warriors/pallies. However I was simply asking if anyone would see if they noticed a threat increase when switching to DW. While ToT is no longer an option, thus removing the dual Runestrikes, why am I noticing this increase in threat when using Weapons that are statistically not on par(well Wrathful Slicer is, but I simply got that for Roleplaying Reasons, and do goof off in ICC). So why is 2handers the "only" viable method? Simply food for thought.


Fast 1h tanking weapons are gone after WotLK, no use for em and blizzard got the sense to not itemize them. All of the 1h tanking itemized weapons in Cata so far are 2.6 speed or slower.

4.0+ tanking mechanics do not in any way favor fast weapons for anyone. For warriors a slow weapon is a significant damage boost to both devastate and rend. For pallies they have to use a slow weapon to make crusader strike even viable and even maintain their single target rotation, fast weapons require using HotR on single targets which will oom a tankadin in about 2 minutes and is less threat than using crusasder strike with a slow weapon. DKs of course heavily favor 2 handers now with ToT not accessible to tanks.
Edited by Voradrac on 11/20/2010 4:18 AM PST
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