Reforging and the loss of personalization

This could apply to DPS, healer, or tank of any class. But I will describe it from my perspective.

As a discipline priest, reforging allows for a ton of options and the ability to customize your play-style as a healer. As an example, I will describe what reforging allows.

If I want to be an atonement-style priest, critical strike rating is an excellent stat, which allows for more damage, and higher heals through that damage. It also increases the chance for divine aegis, which is nice as well.

If I want to be a defensive-style priest, mastery is an excellent stat, increasing the size of my bubbles and aegis on my targets.

If I reach a point where my mana regen is good, reforging also allows me to adjust my spirit and throttle it as needed. This is a nice option.

With no ability to reforge, I might get 5 consecutive drops with haste, which is not a particularly good stat for me. I will be stuck with these stats, no matter their usefulness. I might be forced to play a different style according to my drops, instead of playing the style that I want to play.

In addition, other healers who have a "bad" stat, might be penalized more than those that do not. If haste, mastery, and crit are all equally good for shamans, the gear might not effect them as much as another healer who has a "bad" stat because of the design.

I think reforging brings so many neat options for a player to think about, and in the end, the PLAYER is in charge of his destiny, not the random drops that may come his way.

Just my two cents.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
We have to hope that they will even out how good stats will be in 6.0. Otherwise gear rng is going to be taken to a whole new level. Unfortunately i think we are going to be stuck with the rng thing as they have never done a good job balancing stats.
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90 Human Priest
13720
The thing about reforging is it makes the specific upgrade less of a necessity. With the way they are balancing stats next expansion, if everyone could still reforge it would be hell on deciding who got what drop and everyone would be competing on almost every piece. Also, as a discipline priest... pretty much you want to have crit and then mastery anyway because crit will buff your mastery, but that's another story for another day.

At least in pve anyway.
Edited by Tsilyi on 11/24/2013 8:43 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
12250
Reprobus, there is good and bad in every design. The whole reason its being removed is because of the following. Voila SHINY X drops, Step 1) Reforge - crap that makes me spend 180 gold to adjust for X, Step 2) Gem. Step 3) Enchant, 4) Step 4, finally enjoy new piece of gear. Usually very hard to do mid-raid, unless its a tier piece which gives a good bonus and the raid is willing to pause while you go do this. This takes literally all the excitement out of getting a new piece because you automatically start thinking about the above. The new system, will just be equip and enjoy. Yes your play style might change, or you could just pass those haste items to the other clothies and wait for crit items.

This system just created overhead and while yes it does still allow customization of playstyle it also sapped the joy of getting new items. It turned it into "Oh look new weapon, great now I have to spend X thousands on an enchant and reforge", which was never the intention of this system. Also by having a system like this in place there will always be a max(minmaxed) calculation and that drive for even the basic raider will sap the joy from the system. Back in vanilla it was this way, Epic was better than blue, there was only tier pieces, and the choice for paladins was crit vs mana regen. Every piece of gear felt meaningful as it should.

Ranelan
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
The problem I have with this is that it goes against the way the game works. It wasn't players who created the need for reforging, it was blizzard with their very own game mechanics.

Breakpoints - Many classes benefit from certain stats only up to a point. Prior to a certain breakpoint, a particular stat might be your best stat. After that breakpoint, it might be your worst stat. Even with reforging and all that, it can be difficult to get close to your breakpoint without wasting valuable stats. How the hell is anyone supposed to do that now?

Again, this isn't a player issue, this is an issue that Blizzard created themselves by making the breakpoints so significant in terms of player gearing. Now we're going to end up in a situation where people might have to pass up what should be a significant upgrade simply because it doesn't have the secondary stats they need to achieve a certain breakpoint. That is NOT fun gameplay.

Healer gear. Blizzard has this idea that healers only selectively need spirit. In many cases, even some healer tier pieces don't come with spirit on them. That stupidity was slightly tolerable when we could at least reforge one of trash stats into spirit on those pieces.

I also feel like as a healer, there has always been a degree of choice in terms of throughput vs regen. Some prefer to cast as few spells as possible while making those spells as strong as possible. Some are content with slightly weaker spells in exchange for massive regen that allows them to dish out a constant blitzkrieg of healing on the raid. Now you're just stuck with whatever stats you are lucky enough to get, regardless of what you prefer.

I guess - similar to a homeless person at a food bank - we should just be grateful for the gear we get from blizzard despite the lack of choice?
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90 Orc Shaman
12885
My problems with reforging is that there is no longer a "good gear vs bad gear" debate, as we now have "good gear vs 40% good gear" after reforging something into what we want. It removes much of the impact of itemization, which only gets damped further when you can add gems and enchants for what you want.

Add to this the fact that we went from "Oh, good, new gear piece!" to "Oh snap, new gear piece. Need to reforge/regem everything to squeeze myself like a lemon", and you're left with a gearing process that becomes more of a mathematical problem than a fun factor. My raid often has 5 minute breaks just so people can unlog, update themselves on Mr.Robot to maximize stat allocation, relog, regem, reforge, enchant and then come back to raid just for 1 single piece of gear.

I know it sucks to get Spirit gear when you don't need spirit, or get Haste when it's your worst stat and you need Mastery. I personally wont mind getting some less optimal gear and adjust myself to it and finally be happy when I get the piece I needed.

Things probably would feel better if they managed to balance all secondary stats to be in close value to each other, instead of the current "X is great, Y is meh, Z is the plague", as it would allow for more playstyles and gearing decisions while adding a barrier so you can't just go Crit-build today and Haste-build in the morning in just 10 minutes in front of the reforge guy.
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90 Draenei Paladin
11050
It's also meant to remove the absurd stat scaling available across an expansion. Previously they could limit the maximum level of any secondary stat by gear itemization across a tier. With less gems, less enchants, and no reforging, you won't see people with ridiculous swings in performance due to having complete access to their spec's preferred stats. It will reduce the spectrum of top performance to bottom performance, which will allow better balancing.

In short, they're nerfing everyone so they can balance the game easier.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
11/24/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Ranelan
"Oh look new weapon, great now I have to spend X thousands on an enchant and reforge",


I've literally never had a thought process similar to this. Every new piece of gear I've gotten has either been amazing, because I wanted it, or "okay" because it was a good fill in until I got the piece I wanted.

Not having enough gold for reforging? o_O Or Enchanting and gemming? o_O

This is why we have dailies. :-\
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Breakpoints - Many classes benefit from certain stats only up to a point. Prior to a certain breakpoint, a particular stat might be your best stat. After that breakpoint, it might be your worst stat. Even with reforging and all that, it can be difficult to get close to your breakpoint without wasting valuable stats. How the hell is anyone supposed to do that now?

Again, this isn't a player issue, this is an issue that Blizzard created themselves by making the breakpoints so significant in terms of player gearing. Now we're going to end up in a situation where people might have to pass up what should be a significant upgrade simply because it doesn't have the secondary stats they need to achieve a certain breakpoint. That is NOT fun gameplay.


Well they are removing breakpoints so this is a non-issue.
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90 Tauren Paladin
12250
Tiriel. I have plenty of gold. Although have you ever gotten a new weapon 528 and the next day gotten the 540/553 version. If you just spent 500 valor and 2.5k(at the time gold on jade spirit). That upgrade feels good, but still less amazing than say vanilla. Knowing your upgrade now needs to upgrades in its own as well as enchant/gem/reforge.

Think of it another way. You spend a lot of time and buy the best 2015 car available at the time, you spend several thousand dollars on it(modding it). Then the next week you win a small lotto but now need to get the same car but maybe modded by a company(Nismo, Rouche, Venom etc). While still amazing, if you know it took like a month to do all the improvements to your previous car, even if you got that car today it would takes weeks to make it feel as awesome. In essence, the system delays the what should be instant upon receiving. It wasn't always this way. They admitted that this system takes the fun out at Blizzcon.

One last way to look at it. Do you want to look at gear as a reward or a task to min/max your character? Imagine if Arthur upon receiving Excalibur, was like " I will wield this once I figure out my hit/expertise/mastery/crit/haste cap". Can't we just enjoy "Holy !@#$ I just won Excalibur".

Ranelan
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90 Night Elf Druid
12635
Buying a car =/ gemming gear :P

My guild actually provides gem and enchants so it essentially costs me nothing, but since the toon I raid on is JC and enchanting I just do it myself. Gold is easy enough to make in the game it doesn't matter. Of course I get a little annoyed when I get a new piece and then something else drops, but I'd rather get too much gear than not enough :P I find it's easier to stat change as a healer rather than a dps, at times.

My thought process on a new piece is generally how I am going to itemize it, not how much it's going to cost me or how long it'll cost. It's become so second nature now it takes no time at all. Not having reforging will be strange at first, but it'll all depend on how they do stats. As said no longer haste breakpoints and there's been talk of no hit cap/etc.

I'm excited to see what all it ends up doing to gear without it.
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90 Troll Druid
14565
We're removing reforging because it complicates gear and doesn't feel fun, taking away a lot of enchanting options, and removing some gems. But hey we're going to add some completely useless stats to fill those places and make you cry because you can't get the stat you want. Don't worry though, because if you don't want that stat you can just play a different spec that uses it because there's no more agility leather or intellect leather it's all just leather.
Edited by Bitter on 11/24/2013 3:04 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
12635
We're removing reforging because it complicates gear and doesn't feel fun, taking away a lot of enchanting options, and removing some gems. But hey we're going to add some completely useless stats to fill those places and make you cry because you can't get the stat you want. Don't worry though, because if you don't want that stat you can just play a different spec that uses it because there's no more agility leather or intellect leather it's all just leather.


Someone sounds bitter ;)

... was too easy not to say.
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90 Troll Druid
14565
Someone sounds bitter ;)

... was too easy not to say.


Not the first person to say that, won't be the last;)
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90 Night Elf Druid
12635
Someone sounds bitter ;)

... was too easy not to say.


Not the first person to say that, won't be the last;)


I didn't think so but I just had to do it <3

I'm still optimistic when it comes to the gear changes, think it'll be more of pain to have several people now on different types of gear (cloth, leather, etc) but it's better than gear dropping no one needs I guess (although eventually that'll happen too!).
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90 Pandaren Priest
8295
reforging doesn't actually let you customize your gear if you care at all about minmax.

and if you don't why aren't you stacking haste
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90 Pandaren Monk
16785
One reason I think this change will be hard initially is this is a nerf to everyone. Every class and spec reforges to do better. Make no mistake, no reforging will nerf you. Even with the new gearing, there will be times you could do better if you could reforge. The important thing is everything will be balanced around no reforging.

Lets see if they make secondaries a bit more equal for one. Also, will there be any major healing mechanic revamps?
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90 Pandaren Priest
8295
mw are slated for a full redesign so yes

we'll see if they go through with it
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90 Dwarf Priest
15495
With the way they are balancing stats next expansion, if everyone could still reforge it would be hell on deciding who got what drop and everyone would be competing on almost every piece.


I don't think they want people obsessing over secondary stats like they have been. My guess is they will be doing their best to tone down break points and equalize the value of each secondary stat to each spec.

But if they left reforging in you'd only be able to reforge Crit, Haste, Mastery. It looks like they will be removing Spirit completely from most gear, perhaps they are giving all healers a fixed amount? You certainly wouldn't be able to reforge Spirit in any case.
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90 Troll Druid
9990
Honestly we really need to wait to see. One of the things they said was RNG will not affect the core stats. AND reforging will not be there anymore. But mostly: All gear will be universal for specialization.

What this means: 12 bosses, loot tables probably roughly the same (as they said they like the 12 boss tiers) leaving the same amount of items. BUT all people can roll on all specs. So all of the doubled up haste int leather/haste agi leather now is haste leather. Leaving a spot to fill in another item, haste crit leather etc.

If they do it properly they will have (most likely) one piece of gear that is optimized for each secondary stat. The RNG comes to play on the other stats that they said "These random extra stats will not take away from itemization".

TL;DR: Just because they are getting rid of reforging doesnt mean they wont have items with proper itemization. Secondary stats will come as gear is getting meshed together to provide more options for properly itemized gear. You get to take your pick.
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