I am absolutely BEGGING for an ability squish

(Locked)

90 Night Elf Druid
3870
Being able to keybind and use, say, 40 abilities instead of 30 is something that separates good players from bad players. I see no benefit to getting rid of abilities. There's not a single spec in the game where good players aren't able to keybind every last ability they have.

As long as you have a control, shift and alt key on your keyboard, you can keybind everything you need to use in the game. If you aren't able to do that, then that's on you.
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14130


Something you didn't really touch on is how some abilities exist as flavour for the class. The last time this kind of ability trimming occurred, a lot of things we players took for fun and playing about wound up biting the bullet because they were seen as "unnecessary" (i.e. Hunter's Eyes of the Beast).


True, and we want to avoid that. As I mentioned above, removing abilities you don't often use doesn't accomplish much. We often talk about this issue in terms of action bar space, but it's really keybind space that's the problem. One could make an argument that, say, Unending Breath could stand to be cut, but that's not something that's going to free up a keybind for the vast majority of Warlocks.


It could still be possible to potentially shrink the number of redundant buttons, or potentially just reducing the number of buttons that just increase the value of other buttons, etc.

For example, with moonkin, removing Insect Swarm and turning it into Sunfire managed to serve two purposes: You freed up a spell and reduced redundancy from the rotation.

While moonkin asked for more damage cooldowns in MOP, I think moonkin may have gotten too many new buttons to add to the rotation instead of just getting access to one new button to give more control over their damage.

Abilities for mages like Alter Time sounded better on paper than they actually work in practice, since alter time gets used as a clunky damage cooldown in PVE with the risk of killing yourself by getting sucked back into the fire. Thus, Alter Time would make a good ability to cut from mages, since it feels more like a failed experiment in making interesting damage cooldowns than anything else.

Using Evocate in frost mage rotations for a 15% damage buff (where that damage buff just allows me to do equal damage compared to other classes) isn't really all that fun, either, and could easily be removed from the frost mage rotation by getting rid of the mage level 90 talents and making new talents that work better.

Presence of Mind is something else that ends up being really complicated to balance in the mage toolkit and should probably just be removed, with fire mages then being re-balanced around not having it.

Being able to accept when mechanics just aren't working right (or are largely redundant with other buttons we already have) and removing them from class rotations would be really helpful overall. If a class, for example, is making a macro to have 2 or 3 super redundant cooldowns all happen at the same time, it would probably just be easier to remove two of those cooldowns and make one really awesome cooldown.
Edited by Lissanna on 11/25/2013 1:39 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Warlock
9810
I completely agree as well, I had to buy a special mouse because I ran out of keybind's that are within my comfort range.
90 Worgen Druid
10135
11/25/2013 01:26 PMPosted by Nightsbane
We do feel that, at least for some classes, there are a few too many buttons to keep on your action bars. It's an issue we'd ultimately like to solve, but something we have to be very, very careful with.


Start out by deleting Savage roar from feral druids and Inquisition from Retribution Paladins and integrating those two buffs into the specs. They're a nice waste of button space.


NO keep it as the proposed SR talent at 100! Just 'cos some people can't micro manage doesn't mean all of us can't, a lot of Ferals like it as is!
90 Blood Elf Hunter
11215
You will find that most classes while they may have an excess amount of skills to use, when it comes to a rotation they will generally only use 1/3 of these things.

I think the only class/spec comb that is little hectic/overwhelming or whatever you want to call it is Assassination Rogues.

But frankly, if you just look up guides on classes, even with all their skills, half of them are useful only for certain areas of play.
100 Night Elf Rogue
16305


Something you didn't really touch on is how some abilities exist as flavour for the class. The last time this kind of ability trimming occurred, a lot of things we players took for fun and playing about wound up biting the bullet because they were seen as "unnecessary" (i.e. Hunter's Eyes of the Beast).


True, and we want to avoid that. As I mentioned above, removing abilities you don't often use doesn't accomplish much. We often talk about this issue in terms of action bar space, but it's really keybind space that's the problem. One could make an argument that, say, Unending Breath could stand to be cut, but that's not something that's going to free up a keybind for the vast majority of Warlocks.


Eyes of the Beast was not a part of your rotation or something you frequently used in normal combat. It was a fun side ability (and great for pulls). It wasn't required on your bars. There are however a lot of abilities in the game that almost make gameplay more annoying. It's exacerbated when you have too many talents that also become part of your rotation - such as a BM hunter needing to use Stampede, Rapid Fire, Bestial Wrath, Murder of Crows, Dire Beast, Glaive Toss, Kill Command, Serpent Sting, Focus Fire, Cobra Shot, Arcane Shot, and Kill Shot. That's 12 DPS abilities that will be used in EVERY boss encounter, without even counting all the situational and defensive abilities (of which there are many, many more). There is a point where it just becomes too much for those who aren't masochistic. You shouldn't need a 16 button mouse for a DPS rotation.
Edited by Lubricious on 11/25/2013 1:42 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6295
You will find that most classes while they may have an excess amount of skills to use, when it comes to a rotation they will generally only use 1/3 of these things.

I think the only class/spec comb that is little hectic/overwhelming or whatever you want to call it is Assassination Rogues.

But frankly, if you just look up guides on classes, even with all their skills, half of them are useful only for certain areas of play.


Im surprised you say sin is the overwhelming spec.. Its really not that hard to keep rupture up and auto refresh SnD.
90 Tauren Druid
7680
Just off the top of my head….. I’ll make a suggestion for an ability squish. Why do I have both swipe and thrash? Are the 2 abilities really that necessary? Why do I have 2 buttons that I have to hit 1 every 15 seconds to apply a debuff and another one the rest of the time? Could the 2 abilities not be merged so that you use one AOE melee ability that applies the debuff and does damage? Would it really break the feral druid so much with that 5 energy difference one way or another?

The problem is that looking at anything in isolation doesn’t seem that bad, but it compounds once you’re in the 20-30 range of abilities.

Another one is nourish….. Let’s just scrap it shall we? Most guides and channels say just don’t use it. We already have healing touch, is something so obscure as an ability that does slightly less healing for slightly less mana really a requirement? Though I’m less concerned about the “Blatantly” useless abilities since I’ve already axed them from my bars.
90 Blood Elf Priest
15285
11/25/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Lore
Unending Breath could stand to be cut, but that's not something that's going to free up a keybind for the vast majority of Warlocks.
Soulwell is a better example many locks don't keybind it but, don't drop one many people will start asking for it very quickly.
90 Undead Rogue
6600
I understand Blizzard has a tough spot here but maybe they could go back and remove some of the additions from previous expansions. I wouldn't really want to lose the ability to teleport behind a target but maybe smoke bomb. Or maybe paralytic or leeching poison. There seems to be a new feature or move added to each class each expansion. Let's dump a few.
99 Human Rogue
10080
I can't believe this guy even gets a serious blue response, he hasn't been playing since wotlk and suddenly he can't handle the class because he's got a few more heal buttons so wants everyone nerfed so he has 2 heal buttons
100 Night Elf Hunter
11265
11/25/2013 12:58 PMPosted by Lore
It's easy to look at your bar, go "LOOKIT ALL DEM BUTTONS", and decide that some of them need to go. In fact, we agree. It's much more difficult -- even dangerous -- to decide exactly which abilities to get rid of.


Well... A while back I did this. I took a look at stampede and blink strike(1) and just removed them. Deleted them from JSHB too, so they wouldn't show up in the cooldown list. I brought Stampede back as a button click for when I don't have anything else to do. It's only about a 1% damage increase in a 5 minute fight. So why bother with it.

Saw a 10k improvement in my dps. Keeping track of all the stuff and when it was coming up was just information overload. So even though having that stuff available was cool, it just wasn't worth the hassle.

Then I went through my talents and just chose the passive stuff.

My two cents - Just flush just about every extra damage ability in MoP and call it good.

(1) - This was before it was made a passive.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6295
Only class ive ever felt overwhelmed with is affliction warlock, but it became part of the fun.

Personally i think having 30+ keybinds is great fun and is one of the things that keeps the game interesting.

P.S. Warriors think they have too many abilities? You can pretty much make a one button dps macro. wat iz gcd?
100 Night Elf Hunter
11265
Even though I only had a few abilities I needed to use, before Cata I could actually see what’s going on and enjoy the fights and immersion. I had my abilities mapped to my keys/mouse buttons and would watch the boss for phase changes or triggers. Now things are just a mess. I had a buddy watched me play once and he asked what the hell was going on. I told him I was busy watching my bars tick down……..


This too. MoP kind of overdid things in my opinion. By the end of Cataclysm I could do all my class stuff and have time to look around and see what was happening raid wise. Not so much now.

Feels like playing a game of Whack-a-Mole.

Regards
90 Undead Rogue
6600
I can't believe this guy even gets a serious blue response, he hasn't been playing since wotlk and suddenly he can't handle the class because he's got a few more heal buttons so wants everyone nerfed so he has 2 heal buttons


11 million subs to 7 million. Of course a returning frustrated player gets a response.
100 Night Elf Rogue
20995
No.

I like all my abilities.

If you don't want to use them, then just don't use them or put them on your bars...


.....What?

"If you don't want to use them, just don't use them or put them on your bars, and suck at your class to the point that you get kicked from everything because you're doing 10k DPS".

[ sarcasm] GOOD ADVICE! [ /sarcasm]

I think the only class/spec comb that is little hectic/overwhelming or whatever you want to call it is Assassination Rogues.


I have played every spec of every class in this game outside of Prot/Holy Pally (because I loathe Paladins), Unholy DK, and Holy Priest.

Mut Rogue is one of the easiest rotations in the game. You have to TRY to be bad at it. The most complicated class in this game to play is Feral Druid (Kitty, not Guardian). Combat/Sub are way more complicated than Assassination. Hands down.
Edited by Dominitari on 11/25/2013 1:51 PM PST
100 Night Elf Rogue
16305
The easiest way to squish the abilities is to combine them. Honestly I think Assassination rogues are just fine how they are rotation wise, but they really need to just remove SnD from all rogue specs or make them all auto-refresh the way Assassination does.

For feral, given that they have multiple bleeds to keep up, and short CD abilities to weave in, I think you should just remove Savage Roar. That's one button I'm sure almost every feral would love to see go away, if you'd just bake in a damage boost to compensate. Ferals really do have a ton of stuff to keep going at all times as it is.

Edit: Re-iterating: I do think that trying to make talents interesting doesn't necessarily mean you need to make every one a part of the standard rotation. That's a lot of bloat. I don't think it's so bad having a lot of buttons, it's being expected to use all those buttons all the time that's more the issue.
Edited by Lubricious on 11/25/2013 1:52 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
18590
The new expansion will have an item squish, the remove of several stats, the homogenization of gear into 4 types, the removal of reforging, removal of flying at max level til 6.1, and a significant reduction of enchants/jewels. Quite honestly, I'd rather not have any more features taken away (regardless of game health) given we're not really getting too much new added (just character models and garrisons). Removing too many abilities from classes (especially ones I enjoy or think are cool) would be just too much. As it is, WoD is mostly known to me for what we're going to loss than new cool stuff =we're getting. Loss aversions is, after all, a thing and all. I'd much rather be excited for the new stuff than worry that I might not say have wings on a paladin.
Edited by Taishen on 11/25/2013 1:50 PM PST
90 Undead Mage
5145
I actually find the abundance of abilities something enjoyable, than just one ability for everything.
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