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This whole thread is based on WotLK content. If you're talking about predicting Cata content, I can't help you, and it would frankly be silly to speculate about content we can't see. Even if you had Beta access, you don't anymore.
I'm not sure what situation you're trying to model. DL works perfectly fine for me. I almost use it exclusively. This probably isn't going to work for you, but I find it REALLY hard to believe you can remove it from your action bar. I don't know what content you're doing that you're so hard pressed for HPS that you're doing nothing but spamming FoL and can't even weave in HS, because I haven't seen it :P
Even in straight spam situation, unless you're around 60% haste, DL will burn less mana per second than FoL spam due to the cast times.
Mana consumed per second @ GCD cap:
FoL 1189 MPS
DL 790 MPS
0 Haste Rating:
FoL 1005 MPS
DL 669 MPS
If you're shooting for efficiency, FoL is not the answer unless your rotation looks like:
FoL -> Stop and do nothing for a few seconds -> FoL -> Stop and Do nothing
I also find it really hard to believe that you've never run into a situation where a tank couldn't use a 20k+ heal, even in WotLK.
If you're running content where HPS isn't an issue, then you should be using HL. And if you're trying to tell me that your HL is overhealing by a lot, then I want to know what content you're running and meet your tank, because now you're in total EZ mode.
EDIT @ Wimplee
Sorry I didn't see your post.
Yes I'm sure about that formula. All haste stacks multiplicatively . You can test this for yourself by using the multiplicative formula and the additive one. Judgements of the Pure and Speed of Light should give you enough variance to see which formula is accurate.
In game, my DL has a cast time of 1.75 seconds w/ JotP, SoL, and 900 Haste Rating (yes I'm a little bit over GCD cap).
Multiplicative formula predicts 1.747 sec cast time. Matches in game data.
Additive formula predicts 1.793 sec cast time.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/1/2010 5:22 PM PST
Actually, what I was getting at is that I don't really have a need for DL often (I wasn't seriously saying I was planning on taking it off my bar. :)
For the most part, I'm just doing 5 mans right now. I typically use HL/HS, and WoG/LoD when I get 3 HP. When people are suddenly taking a lot of damage, I tend to switch FoL to get them back up, then return to my HL/HS rotation.
In effect, I have no reason AT THIS TIME to use DL. So I'm trying to get into my head when the best time to use it would be. For the most part, I'm thinking of it in terms of Vanilla/BC's Priest Greater Heal - it's something to use when tank healing, the raid isn't taking much damage, and with the mindset/option of stopcasting if the tank doesn't need it when the heal gets close to getting off.
Of course, in 5 mans, this is pointless (I can cast HL forever without consequence), in the 10 man ICC I did after 4.0.1 (but before 4.0.3) hit, I was mostly using HL/HS/WoG/LoD and just tossing 2-4 FoLs (with a WoG in there) on the tank if he was taking higher damage.
I was one of two healers for it (the other being my Shamy buddy), and I actually healed almost all the way through the first boss solo after said Shamy got stuck on an ice spear and whirlwinded while thusly impaled. <_<
Given, we were doing 10 man easy mode, but it WAS also a PuG and I AM also in T9 badge gear (two others were friends/guldies of mine, a DK dps and Warrior tank.) We were really just doing the weekly, but we were doing so well the group decided to keep going. We disbanded after two wipes on Gunship because no one knew what to do (in all fairness, I didn't either, but I read about it on wowpedia and gave an explanation, but the DPS felt happier sitting on frozen cannons than actually attacking the enemy casters.)
<3 wowpedia. ^_^
But basically, my situation is one where DL isn't that useful to me because it's too slow. That is, in a 5 man, in WRATH (I'll make this qualifier because Cata should be changing this), then I need to heal them quickly so they don't get killed standing in the stupid. FoL is much better for that.
So...I guess my thinking is that DL has more of a "niche" of sort. It's better than FoL for tank healing because of superior healing, but if you're trying to spot heal DPS, then HS, WoG, and FoL seem better choices. If you have time to cast a DL, but are healing DPS, HL should almost always be a better choice...right now.
I think in Cata, with bigger health pools, this may change, though I think HS and WoG/LoD will still be better for healing non-tanks. If nothing else, DL is more useful for periods of sustained high DPS, and I'd think that NORMALLY, that is going to be tanks.
Are you mostly healing 10/25 mans? I might could see you using DL more there (in 10 mans, FoL provides enough healing, interspaced with HLs for mana efficiency. And, of course, mana isn't an issue for the moment for easy content like that anyway.) Not to mention that DL probably isn't overhealing RS or ICC 25...right?
...of course, I'm trying to mostly use HL/HS in instances anyway. Best to get into a good habit earlier.
There will likely never be a reason to not use LoD unless blizzard nerfs it from its current interactions. Using numbers from 85 because im lazy, FoL is ~1.75x the size of a single LoD hit at 3 HP. By generating HP with FoL through tower, you lose 1.5x FoL from beacon heals and 1 FoL it self, and you gain 1 LoD. Now if we need 2.5x and FoL is 1.75x the size of 1 Hit from LoD, we need ~4.4 LoD Hits. Well currently 3 LoD hits will produce a heal equal to 1.5 LoD from the beacon, thus all you need is 3 targets hit with LoD to make it more healing then using beacon and healing the raid.
LoD is currently the only thing that gives value to all the things required to boost Holy Shock.
So that's the cutoff on LoD > WoG? I was guessing about that much, but good to know how the numbers are looking.
From what numbers I've seen out of Beta, it looks like Holy Radiance is going to heal for a lot...which is probably why I've heard it's going to be nerfed. So hopefully they'll leave LoD alone for AoE situations.
Though I will admit I was surprised that Beacon benefited from it since it is an AOE (cone, anyway) heal. But, that's because I was thinking how other healers work. Since that's the ONLY multi-target heal Paladins have at present, I could see it being either an oversight or simply something they decided wouldn't hurt anything.
(I'm actually liking LoD and WoG a lot right now.)
A question, though. If you have less than 3 targets (Beacon excluded), would it be better to use WoG on the Beacon instead of using LoD for the 50% reflected heals?
For example, if soloing or duoing older content (alone or with a friend), is WoG the better choice? Not that it should matter for old enough content, but you get my meaning, maybe.
Any time you talk about healing on yourself, you need to talk about PotI, which really makes things complicated and annoying. With 2 people, you would probably use WoG on the other person, getting 1.5 + PotI total healing. IIRC casting LoD instead would heal both you and them (but it can be buggy), heal you with beacon, but not get PotI (again IIRC).
Thus with WoG being about 1.6 hits of LoD:
WoG = 1.5 WoG + 1Poti, or about 2.34 LoD + 1Poti
LoD = 2.5 LoD hits
Thus using WoG is more healing total when PotI is more then ~16% of the heal from LoD, which is simply the case. Factoring PotI into the normal rotations will also cause issues, but not in this case, which only happens because of limited targets.
I can't recall the exact results of my test of Healing people with LoD with beacon on myself, and getting the LoD to heal me to. It either doesn't proc PotI nor heal you through beacon, or it does both. The oddness being that if LoD heals you, technically you healed the beacon and yourself, which invalidate Beacon's heal and PotI heal. I'll test it later again since there is strange reports of PotI behaviour, like it transfering to beacon now...
I'm using DL mostly in 10 man heroics. 3/4 of my time lately has been spent on HM LK10. I will admit however, that I haven't fully adjusted to the new healing model so I've got a lot of overheal. This is largely because I can frankly get away with it.
Here's my latest parse.
For WoG vs. LoD
Faelyne's talking about what I would consider, advanced healing. In a fight, I personally can't juggle all the information in my head. In the heat of the moment, I'm not good enough to consider all the nuances to optimize my play. I simplify it to: if 1 person needs a heal, they get a WoG. If 2 or more people heals, I use LoD.
If the tank needs a burst heal, and I happen to have 3HP, then I use the LoD beacon heal if I see a 3 or more people (myself bring it to 4), WoG. Otherwise I'm spamming FoL.
If you can consider everything Faelyne's talking about mid fight, then pay close attention to what (s)he's talking about. It will make you a better healer.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/2/2010 8:36 AM PST
HMLK10 really only requires 2 healers with 1 exception, one of the healers gets grabbed by a valk. At that point we wipe to infest. DPS has gone up enough we can afford to 3 heal it.
It's always 1 problem or another. DPS is off and we have a phase transition with no disease but shamblings up. Someone doesn't run to the right place for disease. A shadow trap goes off. Someone messes up a defile. Tank dies to soul reaper. We've always identified the problem, but it's a rough fight. We've gotten to P3 a fair number of times, but not enough that we've had the opportunity to work on our vile spirit soaking.
DL is really just for pre-emptive healing on the tank. I can sustain DL pre-emptive heals so I do so. I can't sustain pre-emptive healing with FoL. And shambling enrages are too random to react with FoL (getting a consistent hunter to show has been one of the problems. Have yet to meet a boomkin that knows how to dispel enrage.).
I am switching to FoL as needed with loose infests and Soul Reaper.
By and large I'm not saying DL should be your only spell. I'm just saying I find it very strange to remove our middle HPM spell from our spell selection. If FoL + HL are enough for you, you're not OOMing, and people are staying alive, then great.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/2/2010 10:57 AM PST
While I always welcome constructive criticism, would you please read the entirety of my post first?
And yes, I do consider proactive and reactive healing. I do everything in my power to translate ideal situations to real situations. Maybe I'm not successful, but it's a sight more useful than "figure it out on your own."
I say gearing doesn't mean jack if you can't pick your spells correctly. I explicitly say to NOT follow strict rotations. I also say, if you take nothing from my work, read the spell selection section which I summarize as:
Use some common sense.
Regarding stat priority:
Priority 1: INT
Priority 2: Get to a comfortable/preferred level of Combat Regen via SPIRIT
Priority 3: Get to a comfortable/preferred level of HASTE
Priority 4: CRIT
Priority 5: MASTERY
If you follow the guideline here, it's perfectly okay to run with 0 haste if your play style supports it. Most people can't. Most of us don't have awesome reflexes. I don't. So haste is a good reflex buffer.
EDIT: Your understanding of mastery is off. A weak shield only extends the duration of the strong shield, not overwriting it.
I also DID evaluate how much effective healing mastery RATING does. Mastery is good. It's a nice perk. But you also have to remember we start with base 10% shields. Mastery rating is useless if you never punch past that 10%.
If you see anything wrong with my analysis, or conclusions, please let me know and I'll update accordingly.
PvE WoW at it lowest level is a math game. If you want to be the absolute best at this game, you ARE a robot. There IS an optimal "see stimulus A, react with B". You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. The problem with theorycrafting isn't theorycrafting. The problem with theorycrafting is we don't have good modeling for incoming damage, and we have even @##%tier models for the other healers.
Bosses are predictable. Fight mechanics are predictable. Any RNG is predictable as a statistical phenomena. If you want unpredictability, go PvP.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/2/2010 12:40 PM PST
I should apologize about my last post. It's more belligerent than I would like. I really do appreciate constructive criticism. Community feedback makes my work more accurate and isn't something I want to discourage.
That said, I interpreted the last post as having 2 main points:
1) I made a mistake with my analysis of Mastery.
I can accept this. It's possible my analysis has a mistake. It would be nice to have some more info than, "My Recount says otherwise" but that's fine. I can double check my analysis and/or conclusions and go from there.
2) Theorycrafting is useless.
This pissed me off, and if this was not your point, I apologize for my reading comprehension fail. If this was your point, then yeah... in the kindest terms possible... go bug off :P
Edited by Lylthe on 12/2/2010 1:02 PM PST
Great guide, very thourough and very nice for newcomers and theorycrafters alike.
If you took the 10% mastery your reforged for, or however you got it, and instead used it on Int somehow (impossible if it was reforged, which it pretty much has to be), you would get the following SP.
10% Mastery = 8 Mastery stat = ~367 rating ~= 367 int/sp
Adding 367 sp to Divine Light, which you say did 40,000 healing, which is only really possible with a Crit under wings or similar healing boost, adds about 1000 extra healing to the 40k DL. Given that it is now 41k, with a 10% mastery, you get about 45.1k total.
Apply this situation to 85:
10% Mastery = 8 Mastery stat = ~1434 rating ~= 1434 int/sp
Adding 1434 sp to Divine Light, which would do closer to 50,000 at 85 with 85 gear using the same 1.3 modifier from ICC for posterity, would add around 4000 extra healing. 50,000 * 1.2 = 60,000 total, vs 54000 * 1.1 = 59,400. These are ofcourse very rough numbers, but they show the weakness of Mastery, as this assumes the shield is 100% effetive.
It's kind of silly to compare mastery to int (unless you are talking about gemming for it, but I don't think anyone has every said to gem mastery over int...) since int is a primary stat and mastery is a secondary stat. That would be like comparing haste or crit to int... you just don't do that. Especially with regards to reforging, mastery should only be compared to haste/crit.
Final Cast Time = Initial Cast Time / Total Haste
I take that back. I guess you were right in the first place :P. I went and tested it myself, and it appears you were right. I just never realized that haste benefits stacked multiplicatively.
I was not comparing them for sake of reforging or anything, just for the sake of argument to show that increasing mastery is more or less the same as just increasing the heal that proc's the mastery. Haste does not do this, and so is much more difficult to compare to Mastery. I tire of people saying 'Holy sheet mastery is good because it was in # on my recount/wol/skada/etc.'
If you are trying to say that you can only compare Spirit, crit, haste, and mastery because of some constraint to only reforgeable stats is just silly. How about that 359 Int/Haste/Mastery item vs that 372 Int/Spirit/Crit item?
Is 25 int, 143 spirit, and 143 crit rating worth loosing 127 Haste and Mastery rating? You won't know if you are ignoring int.
If you'd like to evaluate mastery for yourself here's the raw numbers:
This is taken from RS10, with P2 and P3 healing in the shadow realm.
394 Mastery Rating gave 10.7% extra shields. It was used somewhere between 11.6% to 54% effectiveness in an aura fight (which already skews toward mastery).
394 Mastery Rating = 1.24% - 5.778% extra healing in an aura type fight. I honestly can't tell you exactly how much shielding was due to rating unless we examine each and every individual absorb. Even I don't have that kind time on my hands.
394 Crit Rating = 8.58% extra crit, with 0 overheal, translates into 4.29% more healing
394 Haste Rating = 12.02% Haste
394 Spirit =~ 177 in combat MP5 (using ds/dmp5 = .45 actual number depends on int)
394 Int = 434 Int with BoK and Armor Mastery
434 Int =
29.3 mp5 from Replenishment @ 90% uptime
Additional spirit based mp5. Depends heavily on existing Int and existing spirit.
Ignoring DP and other regen sources for now.
434 SP @ lvl 80 means:
HS heals for 260 more noncrit (assumes extra 30% from crusade)
FoL heals for 641 more noncrit
DL heals for 856 more noncrit
HL heals for 320 more noncrit
WoG/HP heals for 170 more (extra 10% glyphed) noncrit
LoD/HP heals for 163 more noncrit
Assume multiplier is: 1.3 (ICC) * 1.15 (Walk in Light) * 1.05 (Seal of Insight) * 1.09 (Conviction)
Now you have all the information you need to decide for yourself how good each stat is.
Mastery vs. Spirit
Spirit wins. See post #57.
Mastery vs. Crit.
Looks like mastery is better, though in Cataclysm, crit might pull ahead. However, it's probably best to balance the two stats since they stack multiplicatively with each other.
Mastery vs. Haste
This isn't really a fair analysis. Get enough haste to as a reflex buffer. This is way too personal to say for sure. For raw throughput (12.7% haste = 12.7% more raw HPS), haste beats mastery hands down.
Mastery vs. Int
This is a weird one. It's not fair because this is reforged mastery, not gemmed mastery. Compared to my WoL, if I could add an extra 394 int, my heals would go up by ~3-4%. This isn't exactly fair, since int scales linearly with itself, and I already have gobs of it. But anyways, for analysis's sake, we can pretend it's fair. This actually seems to be on par with with mastery's throughput bonus. However, the other bonuses can't be discounted either. With the extra perks, int pulls ahead like expected.
Edited by Lylthe on 12/2/2010 11:38 PM PST
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