WoD gonna see mana starvation again?

90 Troll Priest
9830
What I find interesting is that so many of you do advocate more triage style healing like that in the cata release. I hated that. More damage went out then I had mana to heal through. That wasn't fun feeling gimped. Not everyone wants to play the mana game.

I don't like healing through lazy ignorance of mechanics either. Do I think their should be more one shot mechanics, god no - two shot sure. Or a reduction in healing received type debuffs for ignoring mechanics.

When cata was released, the idea was for more intelligent play, but often what happend - from my experiance, is that my role would often be challenged. I wasn't doing enough - I wasn't! And there wasn't anything i could do about it.

I like raiding now. There are mechanics built into the game that can't be ignored and a player will die. My mana isn't really an issue and i like that. I can spam some big heals if needed without going oom in 10 seconds, but I can't maintain that spam either.

If blizzard does change the regen model I would like to see something more workable. Like mana effiecent spells become the new regen. If you cast something like heal or nourish you get like 2% mana back. during low damage phases I can regen, but be totally viable, as a healer, during high damage phases.
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100 Draenei Shaman
12110
All I want is a system that doesn't 'reward' sniping. At the moment mana is so out of hand, the best course of action on a player at 85-90% health is to spam your Healing Surge, Flash of Light, etc spell or even worse just drop a !@#$ing Healing Rain because YOLO I got mana.

And you can't really let HoTs do their job because the mechanics and damage is so binary. Are you running a CD? Great the raid lived through Shock Blast. No? Welp you're dead. Everything is either your target was at 100% or they die. I pugged plenty of unnerfed Heroics in Cata and I always liked that damage felt less binary. People could live through mistakes but it eventually caught up to the group and the healer. And after the first week, in my experience, groups learned that and I got time to drink if need be.

I say the same %^-* every week.
  • Less AoE blanketing
  • More single target healing
  • More thought to mana
  • Make regen less susceptible to getting trivialized with gear
  • Lower the number or power of DPS raid CDs. Tanks are fine
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100 Gnome Monk
15510
A little snippet from the Gear Changes post in general

11/26/2013 05:34 PMPosted by Crithto
Healers will have increased baseline regen on their character, and each point of Spirit will have higher regeneration effects. As mentioned in the last couple paragraphs, Spirit will be useless to DPS specs, so min-maxers will want to get alternate gear for the few slots they have Spirit in.

-- http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10703970357?page=31#611
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I would rather them do away with mana all together, it really isn't a fun aspect of playing a healer... I would rather have more emphasis on proper use and timing of skills, cooldowns, and the triage aspect of healing.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17070
I actually really liked the healing model at the beginning of cataclysm. I would not mind at all if they brought back triage style healing where spell and target selection were valued over spamming your highest throughput abilities.


...

If by "beginning of cataclysm" you mean several months in, after purification was buffed by 15% so shaman weren't nearly completely useless.
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100 Goblin Shaman
18155
I hope the direction of "active" mana regen goes about the way of the meta gem that is currently there. It doesn't have to be exactly like that but not something too far away either.

TC was a poor example of active regen. It is hard to balance on fights where there is downtime and not good enough on fights where there isn't downtime. The scaling issue can be easily fixed but not these 2 things.

Judgment @ 8 second cooldown is the poorest example of active regen. Its just press this button on cooldown for mana.

The meta gem rewards good play while not punishing poor play too much. If you make use of watching the proc and using expensive heals when it shows up (assuming it is appropriate), that is good design. Even if you don't monitor much, you are not that much worse off but there is some advantage to monitoring it (and not just for a totem drop and recall).

More than likely this is how the expansion will pan out though:

6.0 - Mana management is going to be "tough"
6.1 - Mana managment is getting "easier"
6.2+ - Who needs mana?

Its happened every expansion for MOST (not all) of the specs as long as you are monitoring some basic things. Don't see why it would change now.
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96 Tauren Druid
10245
I hated the beginning of Cataclysm. In fact, as someone who has played since Vanilla, the beginning of Cata was the only time I actually quit the game for any significant amount of time.

I hated feeling like I didn't have enough mana to do my job.

I hated having to beg tanks to let me drink rather than just blindly charging ahead, like I was a boat anchor slowing the whole group down simply because I had to drink.

I hated going into a dungeon, having to pray that I actually got a good tank so that things wouldn't be so stressful.

Of course I've always been one that leans heavily on regen and I prefer a very active style of play, one that isn't really compatible with the concept of triage.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
11/27/2013 05:43 AMPosted by Zardor
What I find interesting is that so many of you do advocate more triage style healing like that in the cata release. I hated that. More damage went out then I had mana to heal through. That wasn't fun feeling gimped. Not everyone wants to play the mana game.


I certainly don't advocate that. "Triage," as experienced at the start of Cata, was slow, boring, and stressful (because you never had enough mana to do anything). I'm the last person to advocate going back to that.

I don't like healing through lazy ignorance of mechanics either. Do I think their should be more one shot mechanics, god no - two shot sure. Or a reduction in healing received type debuffs for ignoring mechanics.

When cata was released, the idea was for more intelligent play, but often what happend - from my experiance, is that my role would often be challenged. I wasn't doing enough - I wasn't! And there wasn't anything i could do about it.


I feel this is an accurate assessment, based on what I experienced as well.

I like raiding now. There are mechanics built into the game that can't be ignored and a player will die. My mana isn't really an issue and i like that. I can spam some big heals if needed without going oom in 10 seconds, but I can't maintain that spam either.


The problem is, you no longer have to think. At 31% Crit unbuffed, you should be sitting at somewhere around 45% Crit fully raid buffed. Which means that about half of your healing is going to turn into bubbles - regardless of what it is. So you don't really have to think right now. Mana isn't an issue, and neither is overhealing - and 50% of that just turns into unsnipeable bubbles.

This isn't a good place for healing to be in. Even in Wrath of the Lich King, you had to be mindful of where your mana was (outside of content you grossly outgeared, anyway) and which spells you used. Right now, it doesn't matter. There isn't enough to heal, and what there is to heal is often sniped by a Disc Priest because the amount of Crit floating around is such that you can afford to spam PoH mindlessly once again - and have it be effective.

If blizzard does change the regen model I would like to see something more workable. Like mana effiecent spells become the new regen. If you cast something like heal or nourish you get like 2% mana back. during low damage phases I can regen, but be totally viable, as a healer, during high damage phases.


I would actually prefer that they retool those "slow, cheap, small" heals into "fast, cheap, small" heals, and that they went to a fixed mana regen system, with our mana being bolstered by some form of active mana regen or short term duration CDs. Scaling Spirit is always going to get us in trouble.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8345
The problem is, you no longer have to think. At 31% Crit unbuffed, you should be sitting at somewhere around 45% Crit fully raid buffed.


what.

is this including the archangel tier bonus/int trinket procs because i'm nowhere near 45% raid buffed at 34% base

e: not arguing your point because you're right, just what are these numbers

it's similar to 5.1 disc, really. i think i was approaching 50% (or even 60%) of a PoH as divine aegis healing. at this point it's basically that, just less reliable (and we have divine star to take care of that)
Edited by Truelite on 11/27/2013 11:24 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
11/27/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Truelite
The problem is, you no longer have to think. At 31% Crit unbuffed, you should be sitting at somewhere around 45% Crit fully raid buffed.


what.

is this including the archangel tier bonus because i'm nowhere near 45% raid buffed at 34% base


Then you must be missing buffs. I have like, right above 30% Crit unbuffed in my Disc gear, and it goes to just over 45% in a full raid. (I believe I'm factoring in the AA bonus, though, yes. I just remember doing the math when I was putting my set together, and I'm sitting at about the same amount of Crit she is.)

11/27/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Truelite
e: not arguing your point because you're right, just what are these numbers


Hey, if my numbers are off, they're off.

it's similar to 5.1 disc, really. i think i was approaching 50% (or even 60%) of a PoH as divine aegis healing. at this point it's basically that, just less reliable (and we have divine star to take care of that)


Yeah, slightly less reliable, but because there's so much less damage this tier than, say, ToT, it just shows a lot more. There's nothing else to heal - it's soaked up by Disc Priests. And the healing requirements are so low that most of the final end bosses (which are the only "difficult" ones) are being 3-4 healed on heroic. This isn't a good place for healing to be at.
Edited by Tiriél on 11/27/2013 11:27 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
8345
i could be wrong, i'm just fairly certain i'm closer to 41ish%

on my mistweaver of course
Edited by Truelite on 11/27/2013 11:32 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
i could be wrong, i'm just fairly certain i'm closer to 41ish%

on my mistweaver of course


If we just all had bubbles we could focus on Crit, and our overhealing (and bubbles) would block out the sun.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
I hated the beginning of Cataclysm. In fact, as someone who has played since Vanilla, the beginning of Cata was the only time I actually quit the game for any significant amount of time.

I hated feeling like I didn't have enough mana to do my job.

I hated having to beg tanks to let me drink rather than just blindly charging ahead, like I was a boat anchor slowing the whole group down simply because I had to drink.

I hated going into a dungeon, having to pray that I actually got a good tank so that things wouldn't be so stressful.

Of course I've always been one that leans heavily on regen and I prefer a very active style of play, one that isn't really compatible with the concept of triage.


I agree with most of this. I like feeling like I can contribute to an encounter by playing better and making the fight easier on both my party and myself, rather than the Cata style of barely keeping everyone going even when playing my very best and panicking if anyone dared mess up in a basic 5 man of all things. It got so bad that I rarely if ever queued in the DF because it was just not worth the hassle. I'm pretty sure I wiped to that stupid piece of !@#$ Ozruk pre-nerf more than most raid bosses.

I say active regen can work (a la Mana Tea or even old HPaladin Judgement/Divine Plea) but it needs to be built into the spec rather than hamfisted in, or it inevitably ends up being implemented terribly (Cata Telluric Currents is a good example). But most healers were simply not made that way, and the style of active mana regeneration that Blizzard seems to come up with lately involves DPSing, which a lot of healers simply do not like.

I think the "use a small heal and recover a small bit of mana too" idea was a pretty good one. That's actually kinda sorta how Monk works now, abet in a more roundabout way with Chi builders and spenders converting into manatea over time.
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11/27/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Taymage
I actually really liked the healing model at the beginning of cataclysm. I would not mind at all if they brought back triage style healing where spell and target selection were valued over spamming your highest throughput abilities.


...

If by "beginning of cataclysm" you mean several months in, after purification was buffed by 15% so shaman weren't nearly completely useless.


Funny you mention that. My main was a holy priest at the beginning of cataclysm. I actually leveled my shaman because so many people on these forums were complaining about how bad shamans were and I didn't think it could be that bad (it wasn't).
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11/27/2013 06:17 AMPosted by Blackerbaron
I pugged plenty of unnerfed Heroics in Cata and I always liked that damage felt less binary. People could live through mistakes but it eventually caught up to the group and the healer. And after the first week, in my experience, groups learned that and I got time to drink if need be.


One of the things I liked about this style is that healers could make up for DPS mistakes (i.e. getting hit by avoidable damage, missed interrupts, uncontrolled adds) with effective and efficient triage healing. Similarly, DPS could make up for healer mistakes (i.e. poor spell selection, excessive overhealing, wasted cool downs) by executing mechanics properly and killing bosses before healers run out of mana.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990


...

If by "beginning of cataclysm" you mean several months in, after purification was buffed by 15% so shaman weren't nearly completely useless.


Funny you mention that. My main was a holy priest at the beginning of cataclysm. I actually leveled my shaman because so many people on these forums were complaining about how bad shamans were and I didn't think it could be that bad (it wasn't).


Oh yes it was. Just because Holy Priest was in a similar boat (with your main strength over Shaman being Disc a spec change away) doesn't make it any less stupid than it was. Whether it was nerfing the piss outta MTT then leaving our biggest source of mana regen tied to an "optional" talent that simply did not work properly with the spec(yes, that's how broke Shaman mana regen was), or coming up with a niche that no one asked for and then not actually implementing it "properly" until this most recent patch (so an entire expansion later), Shaman were a mess that whole time.

They were capable of raiding and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, but I literally have not seen a spec enter Live in a more busted and ineffective state since I have started playing (late BC), and they stayed that way for a very long time. Don't believe me? Count how many times their bread and butter spell (Healing Rain) and their Purification passive have been buffed since then to get them to today.

Funny enough, Shaman were apparently were Blizzard wanted all healers to be regarding mana regen at the time. Even without taking other things into consideration, Blizzard has drastically relented on a lot of things regarding their "ideal healer"'s state, because it simply did not work properly and even when it did (according to them) basically no one liked it. Yes, I'm sorry if a few people around here liked that playstyle, but it's just not coming back, and the game is better for it staying gone. The game can be more challenging to healers without making them anti-fun (like 4.0-4.2 Shaman)
Edited by Thaimaishu on 11/28/2013 10:11 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
Funny you mention that. My main was a holy priest at the beginning of cataclysm. I actually leveled my shaman because so many people on these forums were complaining about how bad shamans were and I didn't think it could be that bad (it wasn't).


It absolutely was that bad. I'm going to bet dollars to donuts you didn't level your Shaman until after your Priest hit 85, got some gear. In which case, Shaman had already been buffed, which would explain why you think it "wasn't that bad."

It absolutely was.
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11/28/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Tiriél
Funny you mention that. My main was a holy priest at the beginning of cataclysm. I actually leveled my shaman because so many people on these forums were complaining about how bad shamans were and I didn't think it could be that bad (it wasn't).


It absolutely was that bad. I'm going to bet dollars to donuts you didn't level your Shaman until after your Priest hit 85, got some gear. In which case, Shaman had already been buffed, which would explain why you think it "wasn't that bad."

It absolutely was.


I'm pretty sure the buff to purification came shortly after I hit 85 on my shaman. I was running heroic 5 mans still at the time which is what most of the forum complaints seemed to be about.

I didn't start raiding on the shaman until after that buff so I could understand how the low throughput may have been more problematic for shamans that were already in raid content.

Exceptionally low throughput is a different problem from the mana management style of early cataclysm though. I did enjoy the challenge of a healing style that rewarded more than just twitch reaction and spamming smart heals.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
I'm pretty sure the buff to purification came shortly after I hit 85 on my shaman. I was running heroic 5 mans still at the time which is what most of the forum complaints seemed to be about.

I didn't start raiding on the shaman until after that buff so I could understand how the low throughput may have been more problematic for shamans that were already in raid content.

Exceptionally low throughput is a different problem from the mana management style of early cataclysm though. I did enjoy the challenge of a healing style that rewarded more than just twitch reaction and spamming smart heals.


The first Purification buff came 2 weeks after Cata Dropped. If you were running heroic 5 mans at that point, when you apparently leveled a Priest first, I would be very surprised.

The second Purification buff came after that. By the way, I am not exaggerating. Unlike you, I leveled a Shaman from day one of the expansion, and I know exactly how bad they were. It got to the point where if you zoned into a random pug as a Shaman, you were kicked because, in the words of one group I got, "Sorry, man, but Shaman suck."
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90 Draenei Priest
10240
Early cata heroics were bad. It was quite a bit worse for resto shaman's, and to a lesser extent holy priests.
Edited by Aíyana on 11/28/2013 3:15 PM PST
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