WoD gonna see mana starvation again?

90 Pandaren Priest
14970
Early cata heroics were bad. It was quite a bit worse for resto shaman's, and to a lesser extent holy priests.


Honestly, I wish I'd just leveled a Holy Pally. They were the only ones who were just fine at the start.
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90 Draenei Priest
10240


Honestly, I wish I'd just leveled a Holy Pally. They were the only ones who were just fine at the start.


For sure. Beacon, Hands/Blessings, and the introduction of holy power made them pretty ideal for heroics.
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100 Human Priest
13915
With the removal of reforge and the fact spirit is going to be on jewelry, trinkets, gems, enchants are we gonna Cata OOM?
Wouldn't surprise me. Although with Ghostcrawler leaving maybe that idea won't occur to them. At any rate, they must have figured out that it was one of the problems at the beginning of Cata (among others). They are smart people who are trainable, right?
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100 Draenei Priest
10135
I loved healing in Cataclysm heroic blues (I think that was about 360ish?). I do agree that the starting point for a fresh 85 was overly harsh.

The first tier of Cataclysm raiding was probably my favourite healing environment we've ever had; enough mana and damage to make burst phases exciting, but you still needed to be very careful of mana efficiency; reasonable class balance (far from perfect, of course, but compared to BC...).

The start of MoP raiding wasn't too bad either, though a little too generous for my preference.

Some mana regen scaling over an expansion is fine with me, but the degree of scaling in Cataclysm and MoP was (and is) absurd.
Edited by Kashir on 11/28/2013 4:30 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
Some mana regen scaling over an expansion is fine with me, but the degree of scaling in Cataclysm and MoP was (and is) absurd.


I think what amuses me the most is that the actual mana regen scaling was worse in both Cata and MoP than it was in Wrath, in terms of where they started vs. where they ended up.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
I never felt that early Cata heroics were that ridiculously overtuned. Sure, unlike Wrath and MoP heroics, it was possible to wipe and people needed to be able to execute basic class mechanics like using CC, personal CDs, and intelligent use of mana, but they were never as impossible as people exaggerated (and still exaggerate) them to be. My biggest beef with them wasn't the difficulty level per se, just that they were way too long, had way too much trash and generally took a painful amount of time to clear. They were just boring after you got over seeing them for the first time.

And yes, I did them on a holy pally the first few weeks of Cata, but I also later geared through them on priest, shaman and then druid alts, and didn't find the difficulty difference of them between classes to be that significant.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
I hope the direction of "active" mana regen goes about the way of the meta gem that is currently there. It doesn't have to be exactly like that but not something too far away either.

TC was a poor example of active regen. It is hard to balance on fights where there is downtime and not good enough on fights where there isn't downtime. The scaling issue can be easily fixed but not these 2 things.

Judgment @ 8 second cooldown is the poorest example of active regen. Its just press this button on cooldown for mana.

The meta gem rewards good play while not punishing poor play too much. If you make use of watching the proc and using expensive heals when it shows up (assuming it is appropriate), that is good design. Even if you don't monitor much, you are not that much worse off but there is some advantage to monitoring it (and not just for a totem drop and recall).


The meta gem isn't really an active regen mechanic; it's more a passive proc that you can adjust your spell selection to. I have honestly never found it to be particularly compelling game play, at least for a Shaman (unless you want to go with the Magma Totem-Totemic Recall route), because there just isn't that much that you can change about your spell selection when it's up that garners significant gains. You are going to want to use HR and HST on CD with or without a meta proc, and probably Riptide too. Outside of that, you are generally going to want to spam Chain Heal in most cases. Using Healing Surge over CH just because there's a meta proc up is generally going to be a throughput loss unless there is only 1 person to actually heal.

The nature of active regen is basically that you are trading cast time for mana regen, so any real active regen system is going to inherently have the same limitations as Telluric Currents did. Even Mana Tea sort of does. I just don't know how they can design an active regen system that doesn't have the problem of being punitive on fights where you can't afford the GCDs for it unless you want to consider passive proc type regen setups like Rapture and Resurgence active regen.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
And yes, I did them on a holy pally the first few weeks of Cata, but I also later geared through them on priest, shaman and then druid alts, and didn't find the difficulty difference of them between classes to be that significant.


They were nerfed by the time you brought your Priest, Shaman, and Druid through. I actually quit for two to three months after the first few weeks, because I hated it so much. When I got back, heroics were far easier than they had been when I first leveled to 85.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
11/28/2013 05:18 PMPosted by Tiriél
And yes, I did them on a holy pally the first few weeks of Cata, but I also later geared through them on priest, shaman and then druid alts, and didn't find the difficulty difference of them between classes to be that significant.


They were nerfed by the time you brought your Priest, Shaman, and Druid through. I actually quit for two to three months after the first few weeks, because I hated it so much. When I got back, heroics were far easier than they had been when I first leveled to 85.


I am pretty sure I brought my priest through within less than a month of Cata release, because I remember doing it over Christmas holidays that year. At any rate, much of the perceived nerf a few weeks after launch is more the fact that how to execute fight mechanics correctly are more widely known than it is nerfs to the dungeons/buffs to classes. It's the same reason new LFR wings generate such massive QQ the first couple of weeks.
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100 Gnome Monk
16090
11/28/2013 03:11 PMPosted by Tiriél
It got to the point where if you zoned into a random pug as a Shaman, you were kicked because, in the words of one group I got, "Sorry, man, but Shaman suck."


Weird. When Cata dropped I switched mains from my prot paladin back to my shaman. I hit 85 in a couple days and started running 5 mans. I never saw that reaction.

Of course people have this weird reverence for TBC so wearing a "Hand of A'dal" title probably made them pause.

Then when I got my pally to 85 I didn't really care if my healer was a rogue with bandages until they put in a CD for WoG.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
It wasn't just the healing.

Although I really enjoyed the pre-nerf Cata heroics and 5-man ZA/ZG, the interrupts were just silly at first.

If the dungeon finder put you in a group without enough interrupts, many of the heroics were essentially not doable.
Edited by Rexoss on 11/28/2013 5:39 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Shaman
10430
The first Purification buff came 2 weeks after Cata Dropped. If you were running heroic 5 mans at that point, when you apparently leveled a Priest first, I would be very surprised.

The second Purification buff came after that. By the way, I am not exaggerating. Unlike you, I leveled a Shaman from day one of the expansion, and I know exactly how bad they were. It got to the point where if you zoned into a random pug as a Shaman, you were kicked because, in the words of one group I got, "Sorry, man, but Shaman suck."


The first buff to purification happened on February 16, 2011 when it was increased from 10% to 25%. That was two and a half months after release.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
The first buff to purification happened on February 16, 2011 when it was increased from 10% to 25%. That was two and a half months after release.


There was another buff that happened within the first two weeks. It may not be documented, but I distinctly remember it because the one that happened two and a half months after release was the second buff.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
I am pretty sure I brought my priest through within less than a month of Cata release, because I remember doing it over Christmas holidays that year. At any rate, much of the perceived nerf a few weeks after launch is more the fact that how to execute fight mechanics correctly are more widely known than it is nerfs to the dungeons/buffs to classes. It's the same reason new LFR wings generate such massive QQ the first couple of weeks.


It wasn't even that. It was just plain harder at the start. I remember doing Deadmines with a full guild group and we sat there for two hours on Admiral Ripsnarl because they couldn't kill him before I ran out of mana. Just didn't have the DPS, and I didn't have the mana longevity. I remember that the trash in there was just awful. Not that it wasn't a pain later, but there were certain things about the trash that changed later on. They did quite a few QoL changes. Remember the red bubbles? heh.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
11/28/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Kipery
It got to the point where if you zoned into a random pug as a Shaman, you were kicked because, in the words of one group I got, "Sorry, man, but Shaman suck."


Weird. When Cata dropped I switched mains from my prot paladin back to my shaman. I hit 85 in a couple days and started running 5 mans. I never saw that reaction.

Of course people have this weird reverence for TBC so wearing a "Hand of A'dal" title probably made them pause.

Then when I got my pally to 85 I didn't really care if my healer was a rogue with bandages until they put in a CD for WoG.


I never had a problem with any other class but my Shaman, but I didn't level any of my alts until 2-3 months after the expansion dropped.
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100 Dwarf Shaman
10430
11/28/2013 05:32 PMPosted by Tiberria
At any rate, much of the perceived nerf a few weeks after launch is more the fact that how to execute fight mechanics correctly are more widely known than it is nerfs to the dungeons/buffs to classes.


This is quite true. I remember the first time I had a Halls of Origination group on my priest where all of my DPS were doing over 12k DPS, they all knew which mobs to CC on the pulls, and I had a good DK tank that I was intentionally under healing to see if he could end up doing more total healing than me by the end of the run (he came close). I'm not sure what stage of nerfs heroic 5 mans were in at that point but I was running HoO in particular every day trying to get the Blood of Isiset, so it's not like I took a break and came back to a nerfed dungeon that was a cake walk.
Edited by Taughror on 11/28/2013 6:03 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
It wasn't just the healing.

Although I really enjoyed the pre-nerf Cata heroics and 5-man ZA/ZG, the interrupts were just silly at first.

If the dungeon finder put you in a group without enough interrupts, many of the heroics were essentially not doable.


Yes, this was another issue. If you got a group that didn't have CC, or didn't have the right interrupts, or you didn't have a Pally tank with the glyph, etc. It was just horrendous.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
This is quite true. I remember the first time I had a Halls of Origination group on my priest where all of my DPS were doing over 12k DPS, they all new which mobs to CC on the pulls, and I had a good DK tank that I was intentionally under healing to see if he could end up doing more total healing than me by the end of the run (he came close). I'm not sure what stage of nerfs heroic 5 mans were in at that point but I was running HoO in particular every day trying to get the Blood of Isiset, so it's not like I took a break and came back to a nerfed dungeon that was a cake walk.


HoO and Lost City were never the tough dungeons, tho, even at the start. Those two were some of the easiest dungeons, in my experience. It was dungeons like Grim Batol and Deadmines that broke most groups, along with Stonecore (because Orzak was hard...).

Then again, part of Stonecore, too, was situational awareness that pugs just couldn't seem to grasp. Having to watch where you stand, not pull excess trash...that was apparently a real issue for many players.
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100 Dwarf Shaman
10430
11/28/2013 06:01 PMPosted by Tiriél
HoO and Lost City were never the tough dungeons, tho, even at the start. Those two were some of the easiest dungeons, in my experience.


No doubt they were some of the easiest. That was just one example that stood out as an exceptional display of the difference that having good DPS could make in the difficulty of the 5 man heroics at the time.

It was dungeons like Grim Batol and Deadmines that broke most groups, along with Stonecore (because Orzak was hard...).


Those dungeons actually felt heroic though! My very first experience with cata heroics was replacing a healer that bailed on Ripsnarl right after I had just hit the minimum item level requirement. That was fun.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6110
To me there is nothing less fun than watching your mana bar closely an entire fight.

I'd rather have the so called "inifinte mana" and higher damage dungeons like ZA/ZG than having this club penguin level ones we have now and tight mana.

I'd rather have a ferrari with full tank and a challenging circuit than having a ferrari with low gas on a straight line.

The fun is not on the resource, i don't know why there's always so many healers complaining about having mana.
Edited by Hoylshadow on 11/28/2013 6:58 PM PST
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