Gear Changes in Warlords of Draenor

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100 Human Warrior
15465
player A has 10 gem slots.

player B has none.

guess who gets to ride the bench for next weeks raid?


What on earth is your raid doing that one player in your raid has been getting all of the socketed gear, and the other player has nothing? Do you do your raids with everyone just hitting /roll on anything that could theoretically be an upgrade for them?
100 Draenei Paladin
19000
Random stats really concerns me the more I think about it.

You could have player A and B with the same armor set but player A could have 8 Gem Sockets and say a bunch of Cleave and Warforged stats while unlucky player B could have absolutely none of that.

This will lead to exclusion and a skewing of player performance entirely based on uncontrollable luck.
10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
player A has 10 gem slots.

player B has none.

guess who gets to ride the bench for next weeks raid?


Chances are Player B already was riding the bench or deserves to, anyway. Otherwise the loot council wouldn't be feeding Player A all the socketed items.

At the end of the day, it won't matter - the player who is worse will still ride the bench. All the gear in the world won't help you if you stink.


thing is, this new loot system will create a lot of drama. for example...

one player has a piece of caster gear, it's decent but not optimal stats. now, one week, a perfectly itemized piece of gear drops, with all 3 bonus stats.

so the player without any upgrades gets it, right? well, maybe.

also, this encourages people to pass on gear. why? cause the better version might drop next week. dkp hoarding isnt a new concept, this will take it to another level entirely.
100 Orc Shaman
10835
this sounds like diablo 3 loot system

which was bad
100 Human Warrior
15465
lso, this encourages people to pass on gear. why? cause the better version might drop next week. dkp hoarding isnt a new concept, this will take it to another level entirely.


Worse than Warforged already has? I really doubt it.
100 Human Warrior
15465
this sounds like diablo 3 loot system

which was bad


Sure, it's just like Diablo 3 except the part where most of the stats on the gear is set, the variation in power level between two pieces is overall less than a full tier, and all bosses drop a set number of epics depending on group size.

Oh wait, that sounds nothing like diablo loot.
100 Draenei Shaman
6150
People, to avoid more yelling ... if you're talking about the "bonus item level", the "socket" or the "tertiary stats" ... call them by what they are.

Bonus Stats.

Armor will ALWAYS have: "Primary Stat", Stamina, Secondary Stats (haste,crit,mastery,etc,etc)

Armor MAY have: Increased Item Level, Sockets, Tertiary Stats

Wolf-rider spurs: Item Level 528, 1144 STR, 1837 STA, 781 Crit, 764 Haste, Yellow Socket, Socket: +60 Crit

That is CUT IN STONE, every time that drops it will ALWAYS have those same exact stats.

However ... you may end up seeing something like:

Wolf-rider spurs: Item Level 528, 1144 STR, 1837 STA, 781 Crit, 764 Haste, 500 Lifesteal(Tertiary) Yellow Socket, Socket: +60 Crit

This is a version of the above with a Bonus, "Random" Tertiary Stat thrown in(as noted).

UPDATED: adjusted to armor since necklaces and all that will function differently. And yes, I know numbers will be lower, using current numbers for examples.
Edited by Verdre on 11/26/2013 5:28 PM PST
100 Human Death Knight
8810
Wow, this is quite a change. It will take a little adjusting for the players, but overall it seems like a great change.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
11110
player A has 10 gem slots.

player B has none.

guess who gets to ride the bench for next weeks raid?


The odds of someone having more than 2 or 3 pieces of current raid tier gear with anything beyond primary and secondary stats is remote. Let's assume a raid instance has 12 bosses and the raid has 24 people. Using the 10% example given in the OP, and assuming 4 pieces of gear drop per boss, we can assume that on average, we'll get 4.8 pieces of gear per week that have effects beyond primary and secondary stats. For each person in the raid to get one of these pieces, it would take 5 weeks of clearing every boss.

Will some people have 4 or 5 pieces? Sure, and some will have one or none. But most people will probably have 2 or 3.
100 Night Elf Druid
22505
As a tank, I don't currently aim to have dodge as a stat (I did in previous expansions). However, I love having On Use dodge trinkets. On bosses that do something like a stacking debuff each time they hit, I love that I'm able to last avoid those stacks better than the other tank. And by "better", I don't mean I'm better than them, but that dodge tanking has a different feel than block tanking in those circumstances. I'm sure they have moments where they appreciate a burst of block or parry. And I am aware they benefit from dodge as well. But with druid's dodge from agility and savage defense, the dodge trinkets' CD provides some excellent "synergy".

TL;DR:
keep dodge CD trinkets please.
Blizzard Employee
I read this all, and I like it, a lot. Good stuff.

However, my fear is how this plays out for PvP. For PvE variance in performance based on RNG stats is super cool and creates a sense of non-uniformity, but in PvP you need to be able to expect that class X generally has Y capabilities.

PvP gear will have more stats to choose from, and less worrying about hit caps! PvP Power will likely still exist to make sure PvP gear is powerful without being more powerful than PvE gear in PvE. Additional PvP changes are beyond the scope of this discussion, but we do want to make sure PvE gear doesn’t outstrip PvP gear for world PvP.

11/26/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Draenybrit
Can I just ask what will happen to Spirit for Shadow Priests, where it is now a go to stat because it gets converted to Hit? With Hit going away, will it convert to something else, or will Spirit now be useless for us.

Healers will have increased baseline regen on their character, and each point of Spirit will have higher regeneration effects. As mentioned in the last couple paragraphs, Spirit will be useless to DPS specs, so min-maxers will want to get alternate gear for the few slots they have Spirit in.

11/26/2013 10:57 AMPosted by Madone
One more thought on this...please extend this system to crafted gear, not just boss drops.

Okay!

11/26/2013 11:12 AMPosted by Zmo
So what for the peoples who spent a fortune on gems an jewel crafting just to have a useless pro now.

Despite this being a bit beyond the scope of this discussion, we can say that we don’t want to keep a flawed gear design just to ensure revenue for Jewelcrafters. We are, however, considering additional types of things that they could make to offset the need for so many gems.

11/26/2013 11:12 AMPosted by Vaemyr
I dislike the idea that we're going to have to pray to the RNG gods to get gear to drop, and then pray again that our gear has bonuses. I'm not invested in world first content so it likely wont affect me much, but I can imagine world first guilds getting a little peeved because guild X got extra lucky on their drops and had more tertiary stats which helped them progress faster, while guild Z got mostly normal epic drops.

Philosophically, having a random element to gear helps to keep loot feeling exciting instead of reducing it to a checklist you just tick off. We understand that too much randomness can be frustrating, which is why we implemented things like the bad luck streak protection on personal loot and bonus rolls. Do note that secondary stats on gear are not random (other than some random suffix items, which are in the minority). The additional qualities (e.g. Warforged, sockets, tertiary stats) are random and are intended to provide gearing with a long tail. Rather than deny you an important item slot like a weapon, we can make sure you get an item in a reasonable amount of time. However, getting the perfect item is not a foregone conclusion and might take a lot of effort and luck.

11/26/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Losin
The only system where this loot style could work is in the personal loot like lfr. I find it hard to believe that you think that this could realistically work in a normal raid group that uses any type of loot system other than rolling.

LFR will always use personal loot. Normal and Heroic difficulties have the option (raid leader’s call) to use personal loot, or to drop a variable amount of loot based on the number of players. As you add players to a group, the chance of an additional piece of loot dropping will increase until it reaches 100%, at which point there will be a chance for an additional piece beyond that. There should not be any break points at which you are hesitant to add more players. Mythic has a set raid size so will work much as Heroic does today.

Random Player:
Will these changes to stats only affect items in Warlords of Draenor, or will older items from, say, Burning Crusade also change?

At this time, changes to gear are planned for drops in Warlords of Draenor. We are, however, considering modifying Siege of Orgrimmar gear to help players make the levelup process as smooth as possible, but aside from the removal of Hit and Expertise from all gear these changes will not be retroactive.

Random Player:
How will these changes affect mastery?

We may make changes to specific masteries as part of the Warlords of Draenor review, but don’t have any sweeping changes planned.

From Twitter:
Nathyiel: What about off-hand/shield?

They are considered "weapons" for the purposes of these system changes.

11/26/2013 11:00 AMPosted by Secondwind
Are more tertiary stats being considered than the 5 we've been shown thus far?

This list we have at this time is not set in stone, but currently includes: Leech (heal on damage dealt), Inspiration (heal on damage received), Cleave (extra damage to additional targets), Sturdiness (reduced durability damage), Speed (movement speed), and Avoidance (reduced area effect damage taken).

=============================================================
Getting gear is fun. We like getting gear and we like the feeling that on any given boss, there should always be something that you would want. What we’re doing with items in Warlords is just an evolution of the Thunderforged version to make it a little more interesting. You’ll probably see more bonus pieces than you did Thunderforged in the past, but getting an item that has all 3 bonuses will be very, very (very!) rare. Remember, you’ll be just fine with the baseline pieces of gear, and most of your character will be made up of this gear. But each and every time you kill a boss, there’s that chance of getting something slightly better.

One of our other goals is to reduce the amount of work an item takes. Currently, the amount of work (math! MATH!) you have to do in order to even put on a piece of gear takes away from the enjoyment of the actual item dropping. We want you to spend more time killing creatures and getting better gear and less time figuring out how that piece that dropped effects specific stat levels (hit, expertise, haste, etc.), what gems you need cut, and what enchant to put on it. We’re not removing all of those choices, but we’re drastically tuning down the amount of required work. Get your boots, put them on, next boss!

Another reason for these item changes are to bring hybrids closer to fulfilling their off-spec role. Part of the fantasy of being a warrior is that you can take the punishment when you need to (tank), or dish it out if you want to (DPS). However, collecting two entirely different sets of gear, plus gemming, enchanting, reforging… it’s all different and it’s just a lot more work. In most cases, it was too big of a barrier for some players to even consider. With these changes, we’re bringing your off spec closer to the performance of your main spec. You won’t have to collect the same Chest set piece twice, or say, get a different set of boots. However, if you want to be optimal, there will still be items to collect.
Edited by Crithto on 11/26/2013 5:37 PM PST
100 Gnome Monk
11210
People, to avoid more yelling ... if you're talking about the "bonus item level", the "socket" or the "tertiary stats" ... call them by what they are.

Bonus Stats.

Armor will ALWAYS have: "Primary Stat", Stamina, Secondary Stats (haste,crit,mastery,etc,etc)

Armor MAY have: Increased Item Level, Sockets, Tertiary Stats

Wolf-rider spurs: Item Level 528, 1144 STR, 1837 STA, 781 Crit, 764 Haste, Yellow Socket, Socket: +60 Crit

That is CUT IN STONE, every time that drops it will ALWAYS have those same exact stats.

However ... you may end up seeing something like:

Wolf-rider spurs: Item Level 528, 1144 STR, 1837 STA, 781 Crit, 764 Haste, 500 Lifesteal(Tertiary) Yellow Socket, Socket: +60 Crit

This is a version of the above with a Bonus, "Random" Tertiary Stat thrown in(as noted).

UPDATED: adjusted to armor since necklaces and all that will function differently. And yes, I know numbers will be lower, using current numbers for examples.


and what if I don't like my combination of secondary stats on an armor piece, what if I want to change my wolf rider spurs to be crit/mastery not crit/haste

now I can change them, in WoD I can't

how is that considered good in any respect.
16 Gnome Warlock
0


Chances are Player B already was riding the bench or deserves to, anyway. Otherwise the loot council wouldn't be feeding Player A all the socketed items.

At the end of the day, it won't matter - the player who is worse will still ride the bench. All the gear in the world won't help you if you stink.


thing is, this new loot system will create a lot of drama. for example...

one player has a piece of caster gear, it's decent but not optimal stats. now, one week, a perfectly itemized piece of gear drops, with all 3 bonus stats.

so the player without any upgrades gets it, right? well, maybe.

also, this encourages people to pass on gear. why? cause the better version might drop next week. dkp hoarding isnt a new concept, this will take it to another level entirely.


I disagree on both points.

First point - this won't create any drama. If your guild was capable of loot drama, you'd already know it. It might give a drama-capable guild a new thing to be dramatic about, but it's not going to turn a bunch of good, unselfish people against each other.

Second point - since the pieces with all the bonus stats are going to be quite rare, it would be silly to hoard your DKP for something you might never see. It may encourage passing on gear a little bit at the start, but once people realize they're not going to get that specific "god-item" they are hoping for, they'll stop passing on things pretty quickly, especially when they start falling behind the gear curve and their dps output suffers.
100 Draenei Shaman
6150
Peppito, I was just clarifying to anyone who MAY be confused on two different "random stat" phrases I've seen flying around in this.

Some thought that ALL the Secondary Stats were randomized, while others were talking about the Random Bonus Stats.

Yes, I do feel that Reforging should stay. Elemental Shamans don't need a lot of crit, so what if I get a string of five crit/haste or crit/mastery pieces back to back? Under the no reforge I'm boned with a less than useful stat.

Reforging lets me get SOME use out of that "less than useful" stat.
10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
Another reason for these item changes are to bring hybrids closer to fulfilling their off-spec role. Part of the fantasy of being a warrior is that you can take the punishment when you need to (tank), or dish it out if you want to (DPS). However, collecting two entirely different sets of gear, plus gemming, enchanting, reforging… it’s all different and it’s just a lot more work. In most cases, it was too big of a barrier for some players to even consider. With these changes, we’re bringing your off spec closer to the performance of your main spec. You won’t have to collect the same Chest set piece twice, or say, get a different set of boots. However, if you want to be optimal, there will still be items to collect.


I have to ask, will this mean a "hybrid tax"? since hybrids will be able to change roles more easily, will their damage be toned down relative to pures?
16 Gnome Warlock
0
Crithto, would still like this question answered:

Regarding the section on "Non-Armor Pieces: Weapons, Rings, Cloak, Necklace, and Trinkets"

I don't believe you state in the article if switching specs from, say, Holy Paladin to Retribution Paladin will also change the "mainstat" from Spell Power to Attack Power on these items. Your example doesn't address it, either. It just says that the ring would be less than optimal, but it doesn't say if it's less than optimal because it has spirit or because it won't have attack power.

Could you please clarify and elaborate?
100 Tauren Druid
19320
I see the changes with the "bonus" stats/Warforged/Sockets being easy to deal with as at least for my spec I have a BiS list but it changes if you see a Warforged item and back in ToT it was different if you got a shared loot drop so that won't be a massive deal.

My question with these changes and you may not be able to answer it as WoD is far away but is DODGE going away as a mechanic in General or only on Gear??? Guardian Druids have Savage Defense which increases their dodge. We don't get passive dodge from gear for the most part anyway so it won't matter there but if DODGE is gone from the game then I assume you are going to drastically change a Guardian druid gameplay?
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14040

This list we have at this time is not set in stone, but currently includes: Leech (heal on damage dealt), Inspiration (heal on damage received), Cleave (extra damage to additional targets), Sturdiness (reduced durability damage), Speed (movement speed), and Avoidance (reduced area effect damage taken).

will cleave work for healers
Edited by Peachblossom on 11/26/2013 5:49 PM PST
90 Tauren Warrior
16260
Crithto, PLEASE include more craftable items with the professions, with some truly epic plan drops within the raids and possibly even the dungeons. Perhaps you could make some plans have a higher likelihood of getting bonus stats.

This could balance out the loss of gems for gemcrafters, for instance -- more necklaces/rings, with different secondary stats -- and perhaps more difficult (but not impossible) gathering needed for special items for the more epic patterns. I'm not looking to a return to the Vanilla/BC days of 40 components going into a hat, or having to farm 4 hours for a handful of spiderweb, but having some patterns take a little time or patience to make isn't a bad thing, and makes the crafted item feel even more epic -- especially if it winds up with a bonus stat.

Additionally, you could have crafting recipes that take reagents that can improve the chances of getting a bonus stat. The reagents aren't necessary for the base item, but using them during the crafting could improve the potential.

Sorry, a tiny bit off topic, but we want professions that craft to be even more interesting in WoD, and the armor and stat layout has potential for crafting that shouldn't be wasted.
100 Gnome Priest
19670
Technically this 10% chance system already exists as Warforged. If your a 10m raider you have a 10% chance to already get Warforged, now there is just another 10% to get a socket and another 10% to get the extra stat. It isn't really game breaking as I assume they will balance all the content around non Warforged/Socket/Bonus Stat gear. I like the bonus stats, its cool when it drops in our 10m and it's a nice bonus, I don't hunt it down but when it drops were all happy. It makes fights like Immerseus still interesting cause he can still drop Warforged Heroic gear, and isn't just that boss that is in the way of other bosses.

That being said what scares me is the 3 new secondary stats, it's already annoying to get the stats you want with the current 4 hit/mastery/crit/haste (5 if your physical dps, expertise), it'll be horrible with 6 and then on top of that your removing reforge. If your seriously considering 6 secondary stats or even 4-5 secondary stats bring back reforge else gear will get DEed just because it has Multistrike + Amp and the that's the classes worst stats. I know I will and far more people will be very selective on the gear they loot because they can't reforge out a stats they don't want for a stats they do want, and with even more other stats this will become even more crazy.

About the new stats ... other then Readiness the new secondary stats are just over complicated version of new or old stats.

Multistrike - In essence is just crit but instead of hitting for double damage you hit the target 2 more times for 33% of the damage each time, this is VERY similar to crit because in a way when you crit you hit the target for double damage ... aka twice. For many classes crit already gives other benefits such as mana returns or procs but multistrike as you already put doesn't do this (second shadow orb) so in a way its crit but worse then crit. You could then tie multistrike to crit abilities or other abilities but then you've made everything even more complicated. It's cool as a proc on a trinket but as a stats it's underwhelming and crit already fills that role of "double damage" stats.

Amplify - Although really cool on paper, it's really just attack power/spell power, the more you get the more damage you do. I like that it increases crit damage and multistrike damage (instead of crit % and multistrike %) but it just flat out increases haste and mastery which isn't that exciting. The only class that may love this is healers because it could Amp spirit. If it benefited haste/mastery in other ways it may be cool, but I can't see how that would work.

Readiness - Really good idea but some classes (Shadowpriests are a perfect example) will not benefit much if at all from this stats as it really helps out cooldown specs but specs with little to no cooldowns, or cooldowns that don't really do a lot of damage, these classes will not benefit from this at all. So then you'll have to give classes with lackluster CD's better or more CD's so they aren't penalized for grabbing Readiness gear.
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