Combat Rogue's

80 Tauren Warrior
3670
How is Combat doing in Cataclysm? I'm debating at the moment if I want to main my Rogue or Warrior for Cataclysm and Combat is one of the specs I am looking at for my Rogue.

I see the new Revealing Strike and my favorite move of all time Omnisla... I mean Killing Spree.

Is Combat still an amazing Raid spec in Cataclysm?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8025
Short answer: no.

Long answer: ahHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no.
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71 Human Warrior
540
^
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85 Worgen Rogue
6740
I am still combat and I will not go mut because I've been combat rogue since vanilla. I am very disappointment with this broken combat rogue. I am really hoping Blizzard is actually working on it...
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90 Goblin Rogue
7810
This is the OP's Rogue.

Why is Combat so far behind Mutilate?

What did they change to ruin it?
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38 Night Elf Rogue
170
So if a nice person in beta stumbles upon this thread I have a few questions that I'd like to keep updated on if possible. These questions are intended for 85 rogues.

-Offhand, fast (dagger) or slow (sword/axe/mace/fist)?
-Is it true that there is literally no fast (<2sec) sword/axe/mace/fist implemented in post 80 items?
-Is main gauche still conflicting with combat potency (CP) and deadly poison, in being best utilized with a slow OH?
-In your opinion does it look possible that at some point enough haste and mastery with a slow OH will make up for the loss in CP and deadly poison utilization with a fast OH?
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100 Human Rogue
14615
This is the OP's Rogue.

Why is Combat so far behind Mutilate?

What did they change to ruin it?


The quick, overly simplified, and probably wrong on a few accounts, explaination...

The removal of Arpen and abilities/talents that don't support/synergize with each other.

Main Gauche, favors a fast mainhand to proc offhand swings (which are normalized/~speed agnostic) coupled with greater offhand damage via ambidexerity. Which isn't a bad combination. However, combat's main combo point builder favors a slow mainhand. On top of that, combat potency gives energy regen based on offhand swings, which favors a fast offhand. Blade twisting, which is mainly a pvp talent, also favors fast weapons. Blade Flurry and Killing Spree both favor slow weapons. Deadly Poison favors a fast weapon.

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

It appears that they want combat to be GCD locked and constantly in danger of capping energy. Judging by itemization, it appears that they want to "normalize" offhand energy returns via combat potency by making slow offhands favorable. They haven't buffed mastery enough to make that a viable alternative.

And it still doesn't resolve the issue that the talent redesign and stat changes were supposed to make things simpler for players to figure out in-game and not have to rely so much on guides and spreadsheet to figure out. However the talents give no indication of which weapons combat is supposed to use.
Edited by Aeriwen on 11/19/2010 10:40 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8025
This is the OP's Rogue.

Why is Combat so far behind Mutilate?

What did they change to ruin it?


They took away our access to talents that increase our poison damage (which ignores armor) and Armor Penetration, the stat we could stack so that our physical attacks ignored armor. Now our attacks are mitigated by armor. When this happened, they buffed up the other physical damage classes so that they either got around the armor or did enough additional damage to make up the difference. They didn't bother with us, for some reason.

Then they gave us new abilities, talents and glyphs that rob one another of damage to deal damage. For instance, Revealing Strike only conveys its microscopic benefit (I'm not exaggerating - you have to have a parser on to measure its contribution to your damage) when the SS glyph doesn't kick in and give you the fifth combo point. You can RvS earlier in the rotation, but then you're getting less out of your SS glyph because it's just as likely to procc on the fifth point as it was on the first.

The Restless Blades talent shortens the timers on the damage cooldowns that are cooling down, so to get more damage out of it you want to use those damage CDs on refresh. But Bandit's Guile gives you a rolling bonus to damage that makes waiting to burn them a competitive choice (or will, if they let it affect Killing Spree, which it currently doesn't,) and the developers have suggested that Combat's "deal" was supposed to be timing cooldowns, so again we're reducing the benefit of one new toy to get benefit out of the other.

There's also the weapon speed thing. Our mastery stat gives us a percentile chance to get a bonus offhand swing every time our mainhand hits. If we equip a fast offhander that hit does so little damage that you're going to want to strip the mastery off every piece of equipment you get. Using a slower offhander would correct that, but there's no point at which doing so will get you more damage than you're giving up because you're losing Combat Potency and poison proccs. To make matters worse, it's normalized, and there are no fast offhanders at 85 that aren't daggers.

I've read that it gets a little better at 85. Your energy income is slower and you get to make decisions, and the abilities are easier to time. That's a comfort zone you scale into, though, which means you're going to scale right back out of it. Our playstyle has dates of maturity and expiration. !@#$ing A. The best Combat rogue will be the one who most skillfully cuts his losses, and presently the best way to cut your losses appears to be by picking up some daggers and mutilating things.
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85 Undead Rogue
2000
They took away our access to talents that increase our poison damage (which ignores armor) and Armor Penetration, the stat we could stack so that our physical attacks ignored armor. Now our attacks are mitigated by armor. When this happened, they buffed up the other physical damage classes so that they either got around the armor or did enough additional damage to make up the difference. They didn't bother with us, for some reason.

Then they gave us new abilities, talents and glyphs that rob one another of damage to deal damage. For instance, Revealing Strike only conveys its microscopic benefit (I'm not exaggerating - you have to have a parser on to measure its contribution to your damage) when the SS glyph doesn't kick in and give you the fifth combo point. You can RvS earlier in the rotation, but then you're getting less out of your SS glyph because it's just as likely to procc on the fifth point as it was on the first.

The Restless Blades talent shortens the timers on the damage cooldowns that are cooling down, so to get more damage out of it you want to use those damage CDs on refresh. But Bandit's Guile gives you a rolling bonus to damage that makes waiting to burn them a competitive choice (or will, if they let it affect Killing Spree, which it currently doesn't,) and the developers have suggested that Combat's "deal" was supposed to be timing cooldowns, so again we're reducing the benefit of one new toy to get benefit out of the other.

There's also the weapon speed thing. Our mastery stat gives us a percentile chance to get a bonus offhand swing every time our mainhand hits. If we equip a fast offhander that hit does so little damage that you're going to want to strip the mastery off every piece of equipment you get. Using a slower offhander would correct that, but there's no point at which doing so will get you more damage than you're giving up because you're losing Combat Potency and poison proccs. To make matters worse, it's normalized, and there are no fast offhanders at 85 that aren't daggers.

I've read that it gets a little better at 85. Your energy income is slower and you get to make decisions, and the abilities are easier to time. That's a comfort zone you scale into, though, which means you're going to scale right back out of it. Our playstyle has dates of maturity and expiration. !@#$ing A. The best Combat rogue will be the one who most skillfully cuts his losses, and presently the best way to cut your losses appears to be by picking up some daggers and mutilating things.


TL:DR version: Badly
Edited by Deuce on 11/19/2010 11:06 AM PST
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80 Orc Rogue
7310
I am still combat and I will not go mut because I've been combat rogue since vanilla. I am very disappointment with this broken combat rogue. I am really hoping Blizzard is actually working on it...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMA5YD0jsk

"I was just being rebellion."

Using nouns to replace adjectives is leet.
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85 Dwarf Rogue
6705
Main Gauche is really bad at this point in time. If you see a buff in the near future to Combat, expect it to be that.
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85 Human Rogue
7340
It appears to me that Blizzard refuses to admit that they made a mistake with combat and will not scrap the garbage they gave it. Instead they will keep buffing abilities like bandit's guile and main gauche, and in turn likely nerf other talents to compensate the buffs.
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85 Dwarf Rogue
6705
Well, to be fair... Blizzard did say they have no intentions of balancing the classes for existing 80 content, post 4.01. I would assume they will be doing some heavy balancing once a good amount of people are 85.
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85 Undead Rogue
8145
I'm not sure about playing at 85 yet but I know that at 80 as a combat rogue my dps seems very at odds with itself. I will do all the exact same things that I do since the patch and my dps can either be 8k- 9k in icc or 14-15k. It really just doesn't make too much sense to me.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
10670
I was combat pre-4.0 and it's still listed as my primary spec. My experience post-patch is that it tears %##! up if I'm able to take advantage of Blade Flurry, which isn't the case when it matters. My ilvl 251 axes with Berserker enchants did 1k less DPS an ilvl 232/251 dagger combo without enchants as Mutilate. Keep in mind I never got far enough to bother gemming ArP so I was hit softer by its loss than most and Combat still isn't worth it.

On the bright side Combat is ridiculous while leveling (been working on a troll rogue) and the mechanics are mostly sound; Blizzard just needs to decide what they're doing with us and balance accordingly. Until then Mutilate is the way to go.
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