Selfless healer or Eternal flame??

90 Draenei Paladin
6450
Howdy all,

I've recently started to wonder if I should be using eternal flame. I am currently raiding 10man twice a week and I heal with a very good resto druid and I continue to try to catch up with him on the meter.

I had a great rotation and situational healing strat using selfless healer but it's really an meant for AOE healing I think. Certain fights demand more single target than AOE but is it anyone's experience that eternal flame is better? I am only able to pull off 130k - maybe 140k HPS at good times with selfless healer and I feel with my gear I should be doing better.

I've looked around a bit and haven't found any concrete information.

I tried using it last night while raiding SoO and it was an epic fail. I've also tried it in LFR in ToT today and it still doesn't add up on the meter. What should I do?

I know I'm loosing a lot of spell power on my main hand with it still being a 502 but could it really be my mace or is it something I'm missing?

I use icy-veins and robot for optimizing my gear so it can't be my gear. Can someone offer me some practical advice based on experience please and thank you?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19225
Eternal Flame. From personal experience, the SH build is raid viable in 25s but not in 10s.
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90 Draenei Paladin
6450
TY Bionix, I have been kinda thinking that because SE works amazing in LFR because there are more ppl in range to heal. I'm just confused on how to use EF as a rotation because you have to be in melee range for crusader strike and without SE holy radiance takes 2x longer to cast so generating holy power takes longer..

What do you do?
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90 Draenei Paladin
5400
For what it's worth - I lvl'd up Holy the entire way (mostly thru dungeons), and made use of the Eternal Flame...

That said - I was a bit overwhelmed in lfr's so I decided to check out 'Icy Veins' to get some ideas...That's when I found out about the Selfless Healer build/spec, and I've been using it now these past 4 weeks...

So far so good; mana is not an issue, and from what I've seen most who go SH usually reforge outta some spirit in favour of mastery, or haste.
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90 Human Paladin
8705
Really, since they took away the mana regen from Insight, you shouldn't be in melee range anymore. CS misses a lot for holy, and its a pretty big mana sink. At your gear levels, you should be able to reforge to get to the 7170 haste breakpoint, then dump everything else into mastery. I would also suggest dropping Divine purpose for Holy Avenger. Divine purpose is more of a regen talent, and at your spirit levels you should have plenty without it. Holy avenger is an amazing CD for burst healing. With some good infusion procs, I can pretty much blanket an entire 10 man group with EFs during 1 CD. But other than that, just stick with the HS>HR>HR>EF rotation.
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90 Human Paladin
10865
I haven't really raided as holy this tier, but I will say that resto druids are nuts this patch. Don't feel too bad if he/she out heals you by a landslide.
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90 Human Paladin
11915
I've started healing only recently (last 2 weeks a bit, a decent amount in lfr last few days) and changing from EF to SH was a great QoL and HPS change for me. I don't know why, but i just couldnt get EF right. My hps was crap with it and i was always OOM. I was probably doing something *very* wrong, but i just couldn't do it.

SH is the easier way to go; though i dont know how well it performs in 10mans as ive only been doing LFRs

also; i tried a flex norushen, which wiped coz bad dps, but it was 13 people and i was doing about 110k hps with SH in my gear, not sure if good or bad.
Edited by Eternitii on 11/27/2013 11:06 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
15420
Resto Druid is currently considered the best healer in 10-man. Depending on how good he is, you will have to optimize your build and rotation. You have two options which I will try to summarize here.

Selfless Healer

Stat Priority: 2 mastery > 1 int > 1 master > 1 haste > 1 crit > 1 spirit

Two mastery is better than 1 int. So for gems you want to do mastery/int for red, mastery for yellow, and for blue you want to use mastery for single socket gear and mastery/spirit for multi-socket gear.

Your reforging priority is mastery > haste > crit > spirit. You basically want to reforge completely out of spirit. I have gone as low as 8.2k spirit using selfless healer build (using heroic Horidon trinket + resto shaman mana tide).

Your standard rotation is Ju - HR - HS - LoD.

I suggest for normal you go with this build. The rotation is very easy and there is not a lot that can go wrong. Also, mana is generally not an issue.



Eternal Flame

Stat Priority: 2 haste >>>> 1 int > Spirit to comfort > 1 haste > 1 mastery > 1 crit.

Same rule of thumb for gemming. Haste/intel in red, haste in yellow, haste in single socket blue item, and haste/spirit in multi-socket blue item.

Reforging is trickier. At certain casting haste values, EF will give you extra ticks. You get 13 ticks with 25% haste, 14 with 35%, 15 with 45%, 16 with 55%, 17 with 65%, etc. People generally go for the 35% or 45% break points. Assuming you get haste buff in raid, you need 7,170 haste and 10,867 haste to reach the break points, respectively. With the amp trinket you will need less. For example, when I reforged to 10,867 haste, with 2/2 upgraded amp trinket + haste buff, I ended up with 48% haste.

How much spirit do you need? Depends. What trinkets are you using? How many shamans and priests are in your raid? As a rule of thumb, I would start with 11k spirit for 35% break point and 16k spirit for 45% break point.

Your reforging priority would be Haste to BP > Spirit to Comfort > Mastery > Crit.

Optimal rotation: HR - HR - HS -EF

Non-optimal rotation (less mana intensive): HS - HR - HS - EF or HR - HS - EF

Some observations for EF build:

Do not use Crusader Strike to gain HoPo!!! It is a waste of mana and GCD.

Once you have your 4 pc., macro AW and Divine Favor together. The haste buff will give two additional ticks to EF. It’s a massive healing burst.

EF works great with the legendary cloak. With SH build the cloak proc usually accounts for 2 - 3% of my effective heal. With EF the proc accounts for 7 - 10% of my effective heal. The healing cloak proc with EF is on par with the DPS cloak proc.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4260
So who has run Sacred Shield?

I dunno about anything besides it since my gear and my play style is not concrete or reliable enough yet for me to do Normals, but in LFR I'm consistently staying top 2-3 by blanketing in as many SS as I can, and it seems to be better on my Mana than HR HR HS EF. (Also some fellow whose name I forget did some simcrafting and SS actually gave the highest throughput in theory but oomed horribly)

The Absorb ya do is crazy and, I'm assuming from the mass of buffs, I'm able to get through a fight decently without being total OOM, though I want the 45% spirit in the future if I run this more.

I tried this in a smaller group though and it was horrid though. Oom'd so fast. Switched in flex to SH and did a lot better.
Edited by Thedoctor on 11/28/2013 12:50 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13430
EF will trump over Sacred Shield imo. Our group splits dark shamans with 3 tanks, 2 on top switching boss to deal with debuff. I tested out both sacred shield and EF as the tank healers(poison debuff), and I find that EF heals a lot better than SS shielding.
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90 Draenei Paladin
5400
Resto Druid is currently considered the best healer in 10-man. Depending on how good he is, you will have to optimize your build and rotation. You have two options which I will try to summarize here.

Selfless Healer

Stat Priority: 2 mastery > 1 int > 1 master > 1 haste > 1 crit > 1 spirit

Two mastery is better than 1 int. So for gems you want to do mastery/int for red, mastery for yellow, and for blue you want to use mastery for single socket gear and mastery/spirit for multi-socket gear.

Your reforging priority is mastery > haste > crit > spirit. You basically want to reforge completely out of spirit. I have gone as low as 8.2k spirit using selfless healer build (using heroic Horidon trinket + resto shaman mana tide).

Your standard rotation is Ju - HR - HS - LoD.

I suggest for normal you go with this build. The rotation is very easy and there is not a lot that can go wrong. Also, mana is generally not an issue.

Looking at my build - you can see that I'm going with Selfless Healer...So far I've been having no mana issues; should I consider reforge some of my pieces that have spirit into mastery, and or haste?

thanks!

EDIT - thinking of reforging outta spirit into haste on my shoulders/chest/bracers...Any other suggestions would be appreciated!
Edited by Aberlour on 11/28/2013 9:10 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
15420
Looking at my build - you can see that I'm going with Selfless Healer...So far I've been having no mana issues; should I consider reforge some of my pieces that have spirit into mastery, and or haste?thanks!EDIT - thinking of reforging outta spirit into haste on my shoulders/chest/bracers...Any other suggestions would be appreciated!


For SH I would go all mastery. For gems, use Intel/Mastery in red socket, Mastery in yellow socket, Mastery in single blue socket, Mastery/Spirit in multi blue socket with intel or mastery bonuses.

Reforge priority would be Mastery > Haste > Crit > Spirit. If you run out of mana during a fight, then reforge some spirit back.

Since the pieces that you mentioned already have mastery, definitely reforge spirit to haste. Haste is still very good for SH.
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90 Draenei Paladin
5400
11/28/2013 09:59 AMPosted by Rasul
Looking at my build - you can see that I'm going with Selfless Healer...So far I've been having no mana issues; should I consider reforge some of my pieces that have spirit into mastery, and or haste?thanks!EDIT - thinking of reforging outta spirit into haste on my shoulders/chest/bracers...Any other suggestions would be appreciated!


For SH I would go all mastery. For gems, use Intel/Mastery in red socket, Mastery in yellow socket, Mastery in single blue socket, Mastery/Spirit in multi blue socket with intel or mastery bonuses.

Reforge priority would be Mastery > Haste > Crit > Spirit. If you run out of mana during a fight, then reforge some spirit back.

Since the pieces that you mentioned already have mastery, definitely reforge spirit to haste. Haste is still very good for SH.

Thanks for taking the time to reply!
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90 Draenei Paladin
6450
Really, since they took away the mana regen from Insight, you shouldn't be in melee range anymore. CS misses a lot for holy, and its a pretty big mana sink. At your gear levels, you should be able to reforge to get to the 7170 haste breakpoint, then dump everything else into mastery. I would also suggest dropping Divine purpose for Holy Avenger. Divine purpose is more of a regen talent, and at your spirit levels you should have plenty without it. Holy avenger is an amazing CD for burst healing. With some good infusion procs, I can pretty much blanket an entire 10 man group with EFs during 1 CD. But other than that, just stick with the HS>HR>HR>EF rotation.


Thanks for this advice. I go with what icy veins says and I use auto reforging with robot. Perhaps the trick is to drop divine purpose and try out something new. I'll give that a shot thank you.
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90 Draenei Paladin
6450
@ Rasul,

Thanks for the numbers. I'll check into it tomorrow when I am playing. It's very helpful thank you very much.
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90 Draenei Paladin
6450
PS: About the gems, someone today mentioned that spirit gems are no longer what people normally use now so maybe I've been missing out a little with wrong gemming. However as I said that I use robot and icy veins for my reforging and gemming I hope it's not wrong..

ALSO, I'm glad that Druids are OP and that my concerns haven't been that bad. I manage to get close to him but not quite.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10840
Eternal flame is great for 10 mans when spreading it around on high priority targets (with beacon on tank, of course) is worth it.

On 25 man, damage is so spread that holy radiance is used more often.
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90 Human Paladin
15420
I don't raid 25-man, so I can't talk from personal experience.

However, WoL ranking for top 10 Holy Paladin for each 25-man HM mode fight does not seem to agree with your assertion Veiv. EF and SH seems balanced in 25-man HM. Except for Malkorok which is EF all the way.
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90 Draenei Paladin
6450
Two mastery is better than 1 int. So for gems you want to do mastery/int for red, mastery for yellow, and for blue you want to use mastery for single socket gear and mastery/spirit for multi-socket gear.

Your reforging priority is mastery > haste > crit > spirit. You basically want to reforge completely out of spirit. I have gone as low as 8.2k spirit using selfless healer build (using heroic Horidon trinket + resto shaman mana tide).

Your standard rotation is Ju - HR - HS - LoD.

I suggest for normal you go with this build. The rotation is very easy and there is not a lot that can go wrong. Also, mana is generally not an issue.


Are you sure about this? I am doing exactly as robot from ivy veins has suggested and although I agree with most if this I am however not sure on the spirit part. My raid doesn't have any priests and usually 1 shaman so not a lot of regen there.

I'm glad to know that I should be focusing more into double HR instead of trying to use HS.

I am however concerned about spirit because at times during certain fights I find myself very low on spirit and if I take out my spirit gems and replace them with mastery and intellect I will be loosing a lot of regen. What do you suggest?

I am going to continue using selfless healer simply because it's easier and under pressure while raiding it's important to have a better rotation in my opinion that saves time and thus gives me more healing over all.
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90 Draenei Paladin
6450
I am checking robot now and there are 3 build variations, mastery, burst and highest output and they all have spirit as 1st priority. I'm confused and really not sure.

I changed out divine purpose for holy avenger and going to try that out. Maybe it will help. I realize now about the ticks for EF and their kinda similar to D3 class builds so I totally understand when maybe I tried EF while raiding that it wasn't good because I'm built for the SH spec.

I'm still not 100% sure what to do. I'll try the new talent for now and see how it works however there is no CD on divine purpose and I happen to like that for extra LoD's during tough fights.
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