Concerns About Haste Changes in WoD

100 Tauren Druid
15515
I have a concern about the changes to Haste in Warlords of Draenor (WoD), but mostly in regards to its effect on Mastery or other secondary stats. It is entirely possible that I am misunderstanding the way that Haste is projected to work in the upcoming expansion, so if you see any glaringly obvious mistakes in my calculations or thought process, please let me know.

(incoming wall of text)

Let us use the spell of Rejuvenation and assume that it scales with the current iteration of itself into WoD, but a reduced rate. For the sake of argument and easy(ish) math, let’s say that it heals for 5,000 health. Let us also assume that Haste and Mastery will scale very similarly to the way that they do today. Since we have their actual parameters, we can (attempt) to model this by reducing the current scaling by 96%. What we see is:

-Rejuvenation heals for 5000 per tick (disregard the initial heal)
-Current Haste Rating (HR) of 425 is equivalent to 1% Haste – scaled by 96% is 17HR for 1%
-Current Mastery rating (MR) of 480 is equal to 1% Mastery – scaled by 96% is 19MR for 1%

We need to also assume that Haste “breakpoints” will work similarly in WoD, meaning that at a certain value of HR the Druid will be given a completely full tick of healing. The change in WoD, which will also be shown below, is that Haste between “breakpoints” will simply result in a partial tick of healing that is equal to some percentage of its value between the previous and next “breakpoint”. Again modeling the current known breakpoints for Rejuvenation, we see that the first extra tick of the spell is gained at 5316HR (unbuffed), equivalent to approximately 213HR when scaled by 96%. Since we can assume that heals and damaging-spells over time (HoTs/DoTs) will scale linearly, this will lead to the assumption that:

-213HR gives the 5th tick of Rejuvenation
-426HR gives the 6th tick of Rejuvenation
-639HR gives the 7th tick of Rejuvenation
-And so on…

With that assumption, we can model various situations that Restoration Druids in particular could find themselves stuck at in the coming expansion:

-------------------

Example 1

Druid has 426HR (25.05%) and 213MR (11.21%)
Druid gains 6 full ticks without excess for Rejuvenation and a bonus 11.21% to the amount healed by the HoT.
Each tick of Rejuvenation over 12 seconds heals for 5561 for a total of 33,363 healing over the course of the HoT

-------------------

Example 2

Druid has 533HR (31.35%) and 107MR (5.63%)
Druid gains 6 full ticks [B]WITH[/B] excess Haste for Rejuvenation, leading to an final tick that is approximately 50% of normal (533/213=2.502), as well as a bonus 5.63% to the amount healed by the HoT.
Each tick of Rejuvenation over 12 seconds heals for 5282 except for the final tick which heals for 2641 (50% of the 5282), leading to a total of 34,333 healing over the course of the HoT

-------------------

Example 3

Druid has 639HR (37.59%) and 0MR (0%)
Druid gains 7 full ticks without excess for Rejuvenation and no bonus (0%) to the amount healed by the HoT.
Each tick of Rejuvenation over 12 seconds heals for 5000 for a total of 35,000 healing over the course of the HoT
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100 Tauren Druid
15515
As you can see, any secondary stat that takes away from the budget of Haste on our gear will be a detriment to our abilities as a Druid. While I understand that this is all conjecture since we know absolutely nothing about how this will actually scale once the game goes to Beta and eventually Live, I think it’s a valid concern going forward.

Why? First off, I think that keeping our Mastery (Harmony) active is a somewhat interesting playstyle. It introduces a small challenge into our rotation, particularly since Swiftmend was de-coupled to the activation of Efflorescence. Although it is not greatly challenging to keep it active, its uptime (as observed on sites like WoL) is often the difference between bad (less than 70%), average (70-80%), good (80-95%) and excellent (>95%) players.

Next, I think a combination of secondary stats is far more interesting than a focused dump of all of our secondary stats into a single container until it becomes too full and mechanics surrounding it (i.e., Soul of the Forest) get altered for the worse (A.K.A, nerfed). While I will not use this a platform to discuss reforging, I will say that this becomes a game of “which item has the most Haste?”. Any randomly generated items (like the ones mentioned in the previous blog as possibly being re-introduced) will be exclusively valued if they double-dip into Haste instead of any combination of Haste-xxxxx. This is disinteresting. While it makes “equip it and go” very possible, it takes away from the ingenuity of gearing. It makes the Mastery-Critical Strike bracers appear nauseating, whereas they were plausible upgrades into current gameplay. For lack of a better phrase, it feels a bit too simplistic.

Finally, this problem will not be exclusive to Restoration Druids, but to any class that values Haste greatly—Affliction Warlocks and Shadow Priests are a couple of examples. The points made above regarding Rejuvenation are simply a way to show this issue. I, unfortunately, have been playing this character for far too long to even understand the intricacies of the other classes and specs, so forgive me for not representing everything.

--------------

My intention of this post – clarification. What are the current thoughts about Haste in WoD? What is the model looking like for classes that currently value Haste to a point? Is there any way to get insight into the details of this change going forward?
TL;DR – Restoration Druids are so much fun to play.
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90 Human Priest
16220
Could've sworn they said they were completely removing HoT/DoT extra tick breakpoints.

It's also pretty pointless to be doing any theorycrafting at all right now with how they said they'd be rebalancing secondary stats, and we have no information on how they'll be going about that and the value of them after they do so.
Edited by Illu on 11/27/2013 3:11 PM PST
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100 Tauren Druid
15515
Yes. They are removing breakpoints.

We need to also assume that Haste “breakpoints” will work similarly in WoD, meaning that at a certain value of HR the Druid will be given a completely full tick of healing. The change in WoD, which will also be shown below, is that Haste between “breakpoints” will simply result in a partial tick of healing that is equal to some percentage of its value between the previous and next “breakpoint”. Again modeling the current known breakpoints for Rejuvenation, we see that the first extra tick of the spell is gained at 5316HR (unbuffed), equivalent to approximately 213HR when scaled by 96%. Since we can assume that heals and damaging-spells over time (HoTs/DoTs) will scale linearly, this will lead to the assumption that:


I am honestly not trying to do pure theorycrafting, as I'm not looking for the optimal amount of Haste before an additional secondary stat becomes more/less useful. This was simple napkin math (scratch paper, to be honest) that I threw together to illustrate a point.

I also agree that we have no information on how secondary stats (like Haste) will effect HoT- and DoT-based classes exactly.

My intention of this post – clarification. What are the current thoughts about Haste in WoD? What is the model looking like for classes that currently value Haste to a point? Is there any way to get insight into the details of this change going forward?
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90 Draenei Priest
10240
Could've sworn they said they were completely removing HoT/DoT extra tick breakpoints.


They are removing breakpoints, instead you'll get a small heal/damage tick at the end of the spell proportionate to the amount of haste you have.

So renew has a 12 second base duration with no haste. In WoD, instead of slowly reducing the duration until you get another tick, they are going to keep that 12 second baseline duration while speeding up the ticks. When the buff expires, you will be healed/damaged for a percentage based on how close you were to the next tick.

I'm horrible at explaining things, so I expect no one to understand this :(
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100 Night Elf Druid
9600
In the cast of hots then, wouldn't that basically like, guarantee that the extra tick would be overheal? :(

I don't really understand how it all works.
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90 Troll Druid
10000
They are removing breakpoints, instead you'll get a small heal/damage tick at the end of the spell proportionate to the amount of haste you have.
[...]
I'm horrible at explaining things, so I expect no one to understand this :(


I understand what you're saying - they want HoTs/DoTs to scale linearly with haste instead of its value jumping at the breakpoints. Between 'true' haste breakpoints, we'll be getting a partial tick that makes the math all work out nicely.
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100 Tauren Druid
15515
In the cast of hots then, wouldn't that basically like, guarantee that the extra tick would be overheal? :(

I don't really understand how it all works.


Possibly overheal, but not necessarily. I think that their reasoning behind this is the "gear and go" mentality that they'd like to push. The way it appears to be shaping is that equipping that new upgrade immediately will not hurt you in terms of wasted secondary stats because any haste over an imaginary "breakpoint" will simply result in a smaller tick at the end of the heal.

I think this is a fine move, and it seems to be something they're moving towards with a lot of their features such as Flexible changes in the coming Normal/Heroic raids of Tier 17.

I get that people perceive classes as "Spirit/Haste/Mastery/Critical" classes, but in the current game we do not have that mentality. It feels that in an effort to loosen the restrictions that breakpoints have on classes there is a oversimplification of classes and their secondary stats in general. As I mentioned above, any piece with Mastery/Critical Strike will be absolutely useless to me unless it is a massive Intellect upgrade. Furthermore, losing a lower item level Haste piece might also yield less overheal healing than a higher item level yet highly undervalued piece of gear.

My point is that it seems with this change to Haste, in particular, that all forms of choice are essentially being narrowed to one of two options--Haste only or no thanks. This will extend to more than simply gear choices as drops from world events, dungeons, crafting, and raids. With the announcement that enchanting will be available for fewer slots but have more options for those slots, this means that any enchant that in any way offers a boost to Haste will be the only viable option. It will mean that players choosing to use other options are less optimized and are clearly making uniformed or even wrong decisions, based upon their understanding of their class. Lucky enough to proc a gem slot on your item? Since gems are (likely) being limited to secondary stats only, pure Haste gems become even more valuable and are also the only way to go.

---

As a final note, I am entirely aware that the game's expansion is in the Alpha stages of testing, if that. I also understand that we have no solid word on how any of this will play out exactly, and that it is highly subject to change. With that said, it is always important to give feedback when things seem confusing or potentially detrimental. Thanks.
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100 Tauren Druid
15515
I just wanted to quickly post an example of how, even in the setting of increasing item levels and gear, Haste could become too valuable to lose. Take these two items as an example:

Item A
Item level 600
+100 Intellect (+100 Spellpower)
+100 Stamina
+100 Haste
+100 Mastery (5.26%)

Item B
Item level 600
+150 Intellect (+150 Spellpower)
+150 Stamina
+150 Haste
+150 Mastery (7.89%)

We also need to understand that the Intellect:Spellpower ratio is 1:1, as described above. Adding more to the Rejuvenation formula from above, we can use, for argument’s sake, that the calculation for Rejuvenation is [3900+(0.4*Spellpower)]. Using the parameters for Haste and Mastery in my initial post (17HR=1% Haste … 19MR=1% Mastery), we see the following…

Item A
Since Item A has Haste on it, we first need to calculate how much of a partial tick we will gain. That would be done taking the value (100) and dividing it by the known value that gives a complete tick (213 [see above]). Doing so gives us about 47%, meaning that the final tick of the HoT will be at 47% strength. Using the new Rejuvenation formula of [3900+(0.4*Spellpower)] in combination with our calculated Mastery of 5.26%, we see that each regular tick of Rejuvenation would heal for 4147.2 healing, and our final partial tick would heal for 1949.2 healing. If you add up four regular ticks with the final partial tick, you see that the Rejuvenation will heal for a total of 18,538 healing over the course of the HoT.
Item B

Since Item B does not have Haste on it, we simply need to use our Rejuvenation formula in combination with the 7.89% Mastery that the item gives us to calculate the new value of healing that each tick will do—this comes out to 4272.4 healing. Since there is no Haste on the item, there will be no partial ticks for us to calculate, thus giving us only four full ticks of the spell. Adding the four ticks of the 4272.4 healing together gives a total of 17,089.8 healing done, a difference of 1448.2 healing. While this does not sound like much, in the new world of tanks having 31,000 health (approximately) it is quite significant.

Just food for thought and discussion.
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100 Draenei Priest
10260
I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here.

Yes, given a particular relative scaling of Haste vs Mastery, it's possible that one will be significantly superior to the other. The same is true for all stats. The change to haste ticks just makes haste a smooth curve like all other stats.

We don't know what the scaling will be in WoD, so why worry about it yet?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12740
Seems like you will now get a benefit with haste regardless of how much you have it which from before was with breakpoints only.
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100 Worgen Hunter
11025
I think they need to come up with a clever way of handling overhealing. Like for example, overhealing builds divine aegis (rather than crit), or overhealing builds living seed. This way the overhealing is "stored" and used later. Obviously implement some sort of cap, too.
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I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here.

Yes, given a particular relative scaling of Haste vs Mastery, it's possible that one will be significantly superior to the other. The same is true for all stats. The change to haste ticks just makes haste a smooth curve like all other stats.

We don't know what the scaling will be in WoD, so why worry about it yet?


^^^^
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100 Tauren Druid
15515
I was away for the holiday with limited access to the internet.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here.

Yes, given a particular relative scaling of Haste vs Mastery, it's possible that one will be significantly superior to the other. The same is true for all stats. The change to haste ticks just makes haste a smooth curve like all other stats.

We don't know what the scaling will be in WoD, so why worry about it yet?


This is my problem. In the current game, Haste is superior to Mastery to a point, at which time it becomes an interesting back-and-forth between your playstyle and your gear. My argument is, with the change to the way these stats work, we are going to see a point where Haste/x gear becomes too important for any DoT/HoT-based class and problems arise.

Why worry, you ask? I am worried because of the potential issues that could arise from this change. Let's use Restoration Druids as an example. Tier 17 comes out and everything works smoothly. Blizzard's healing models show that all of the healing classes are relatively similar (within approximately 5%) on most fights, and everyone is happy. The next tier rolls around, haste values continue to escalate, and it appears that Druids are getting out of control with too much healing and too much mana efficiency. In the testing for the final tier we see that Restoration Druids are now overpowered and the changes start to roll in. Changes to Innervate mid-expansion. Changes to spell costs. Changes to healing done. Numerous tuning issues that alter a class in the middle of an expansion and cause discord.

Yes, you're right. I'm worried about the theoretical issues that could arise more than one year from now. However, if we have information that shows that issues COULD arise, don't you think that the developers would like to see this and at least consider it ahead of time? If you think that I'm saying that these changes are an issue and should not be implemented, then your thinking is wrong. Here is a little snippit from part of my post above:

11/27/2013 02:51 PMPosted by Lumas
My intention of this post – clarification. What are the current thoughts about Haste in WoD? What is the model looking like for classes that currently value Haste to a point? Is there any way to get insight into the details of this change going forward?


You see? I would like an explanation of how they feel things like this would work out for classes such as Restoration Druids. Maybe as a Holy/Discipline Priest it doesn't mean anything to you. You'll still value your Critical Strike and/or Mastery greatly and lean on those. However, I would like to know more. I found the gameplay of my stats wonderful in this expansion, particularly so in the final two tiers. If you read any Druid forum you'll see that new Druids are given a bevy of advice as to which of three breakpoints to choose from depending on gear or progression (yes, I know that the 6552 breakpoint is sub-optimal by a lot). Which is why I want to know "what is the model looking like for classes that currently value haste to a point".

I get that this may seem pointless to several people, but I have seen real changes made when giving feedback about the possible. The PTR forums for 5.4 saw a Druid thread that gave a lot of feedback and was never once tagged by the Blue posters. We continued to give feedback regardless and saw changes implemented. Glyph of Sprouting Mushroom was first suggested there as an idea when the current changes to Mushrooms were discussed in more detail. This was before the Glyph of Efflorescence was actually working on the test servers.

If we don't share our concerns, then we shouldn't be angry when things go against us.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15210
Uh, this is kind of obvious, no? Currently, haste scales at 425 rating to 1%, vs. mastery at 480 to 1%. Makes up for !@#$ty scaling between breakpoints with a lower rating conversion ratio.

If they get rid of the %^-*ty mid-breakpoint scaling, what do you think they're going to do to the rating-to-percent ratio at the same time?
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This is assuming a lot and makes you seem extremely paranoid. Even if haste if slightly superior to mastery/crit for druids as it is currently when taking breakpoints into consideration, you have to manage to get haste on most your gear and you have to assume that blizzard leaves stat scaling the way it is currently, which they aren't suppose to.

It's not like druids are the only class that scales with haste and other classes favor other stats just as high=ly (crit for disc?? mastery for some shamans/paladins). Mastery is still going to be really good for druids, it's unlikely that you'll be able to get all haste pieces anyways, and crit is probably going to remain our weakest stat but it's still not horrible. Loot stats is suppose to be rng so we are all playing the lottery and if you get haste on most your gear you might want to consider a gambling "career" cause you're really ^!#%ing lucky.

If we don't share our concerns, then we shouldn't be angry when things go against us.


You're afraid we'll scale to well with haste? The 13163 breakpoint isn't all that easy to get as it is with reforging/gemming until a rather high ilvl and it's the highest breakpoint we reach for so it's not going to get much worse than it is if they left everything exactly like it is now. Are we all suppose to be afraid this whole time that blizzard will super nerf us just cause we scale well with haste cause of our HoTs? You're making a lot out of nothing and if they really do mess up the stat scaling and feel that some classes are scaling too well with it the backlash shouldn't be that dramatic. For all you know we'll scale better with mastery in WoD. The horror!!!!
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-213HR gives the 5th tick of Rejuvenation
-426HR gives the 6th tick of Rejuvenation
-639HR gives the 7th tick of Rejuvenation


That's not how it would work. Haste will be linearly but the amounts of haste it would take for another full tick would be much higher. It would be similar to how it should be and if the fifth rejuvenation tick was at 213 haste the 6th rejuvenation tick shouldn't be until ~920 haste. We just don't have to worry about breakpoints anymore which is going to be nice!
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100 Tauren Druid
15515
I spent a while typing up a response, and then realized that it isn't that important. This explains it all:

That's not how it would work. Haste will be linearly but the amounts of haste it would take for another full tick would be much higher. It would be similar to how it should be and if the fifth rejuvenation tick was at 213 haste the 6th rejuvenation tick shouldn't be until ~920 haste. We just don't have to worry about breakpoints anymore which is going to be nice!


I do not know where you got this information, but you're contradictory in your own post. There is no information to suggest that the bolded is true. While we know that Haste will scale linearly, we have no ideas regarding the actual "breakpoints", thus is the reason that I chose to use numbers closer to probability (i.e., the lower ends of the extra tick gains) than at higher values.

Secondly, we have already established that we will not have to worry about breakpoints. I covered that in my first post, hence the reason for me using the quotations around the word "breakpoint". It was intentional:

11/27/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Lumas
We need to also assume that Haste “breakpoints” will work similarly in WoD, meaning that at a certain value of HR the Druid will be given a completely full tick of healing. The change in WoD, which will also be shown below, is that Haste between “breakpoints” will simply result in a partial tick of healing that is equal to some percentage of its value between the previous and next “breakpoint”.


Lastly, thank you for your feedback and discussion. I really am not the doomsayer you seem to perceive me as, but a bump of the thread with an active discussion is just as great. If it keeps you responding, please continue to think of me as such.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15210
12/01/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Lumas
I really am not the doomsayer


You kind of are.

Haste already scales better than other stats. It has a better rating/percent conversion. That's deliberate, because it's generally a terrible stat except for breakpoints.

They're getting rid of what makes it terrible outside of breakpoints.

They're not going to leave it scaling better than other stats when they take out the reason they gave it better scaling.
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
12/01/2013 01:51 PMPosted by Nerfheals
I really am not the doomsayer


You kind of are.

Haste already scales better than other stats. It has a better rating/percent conversion. That's deliberate, because it's generally a terrible stat except for breakpoints.

They're getting rid of what makes it terrible outside of breakpoints.

They're not going to leave it scaling better than other stats when they take out the reason they gave it better scaling.

Well, they might leave it. Another reason haste scales better is because it doesn't increase efficiency (except for HoTs). HPS goes up with Haste, but HPM stays the same.
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