How do you deal with a healing disparity?

1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
In our 10 man we usually run 3 healers. Given the terrible DPS in our group, it would probably make more sense to go with 2 healers, but many of the healers are long-time raid members and we also end up with the perception of not having enough healing on many fights.

One thing that has become really obvious is a growing healing disparity between our healers. We heal with a Druid, a Shaman, and a Paladin. On any given night, it's common for our Druid to do 65-85% of the healing, with the remainder split among the Shaman and Paladin. On a recent fight, our Druid was pushing almost 400k HPS while the Shaman and Paladin were both doing about 45k HPS.

We usually do pretty well on fights where the healers are together (Where the Druid can cover the other healers) but fights like Galakras where some healers are separated up in the tower, etc we wipe way too easily. We even went back and did Galakras on Flex and still wiped, for the same reason - not enough healing anywhere where any healer other than the druid is assigned to heal.

This is not a group where people are constantly posting charts or flexing their e-peen, in fact if anything, this group is too friendly to each other to the extent that failure is essentially tolerated. No one wants to possibly kick a long-time veteran healer out of the group due to bad performance, even if it's clearly what is holding us back at this point.

I just really wish I had some sort of explanation of why the other healers are performing so badly. I figure it's one of three possibilities.
-They simply got lazy, and got used to letting the Druid do most of the work.
-They are simply terrible healers.
-The druid is too aggressive with healing and doesn't leave anything for them to heal (this shouldn't be possible vs. a paladin, should it?)

Thoughts? What's the best way to move our raid beyond this obstacle?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13825
Honestly, it sounds like the guild you're in isn't for you and you should find a new one. If you don't want to leave, it sounds like you'll just have to put up with it.

Finding new healers obviously isn't a solution for you.
Finding new DPS obviously isn't a solution for you.

That leaves hope the other 2 healers magically get better, deal with it, or leave.
Edited by Hainiryuun on 11/28/2013 9:08 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11205
It's really hard to say without any kind of logs. If the disparity is really that huge, then it sounds like you probably have a healing issue, but the only way the healers here can offer a solid critique is by seeing what's actually going on.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Only other thing that raised an eyebrow is that our Druid is rocking almost 20k spirit, which is about 8k more than either other healer. Yet at the end of a boss fight (the ones where we don't wipe...) the Druid will be down to maybe 20% mana while the other healers will still have half their mana or more.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13825
As weeblzwobble said, without logs, or hell, at least even armory there is nothing we can help you with in terms of getting your healers better.
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90 Human Priest
12900
11/28/2013 09:02 AMPosted by Galindiae
The druid is too aggressive with healing and doesn't leave anything for them to heal


This could be the case, except:

11/28/2013 09:02 AMPosted by Galindiae
fights like Galakras where some healers are separated up in the tower, etc we wipe way too easily. We even went back and did Galakras on Flex and still wiped, for the same reason - not enough healing anywhere where any healer other than the druid is assigned to heal.


And you're also right that the pally should also be "limiting" how much healing the druid is sniping, to an extent.

So either the shaman & pally have become *incredibly* lazy, or they're not terribly good. Sometimes, a 3-healing environment can breed this problem; one healer is especially strong, and the other two slack off for so long that eventually they're just out-of-touch with how they might play better.

The problem will be difficult to tackle, if your guild is essentially a casual group where no one is asked to pull up their socks when they're under-performing, because the shaman & pally will likely feel singled out and attacked if all of a sudden they're given the impression that *they* are the problem, when problem players aren't usually pointed out.

I'd suggest that you, or some other concerned raider, might want to do some quiet investigation into how shamans & paladins are healing the fight, and then casually chat with the healers about it. Not "Hey, we need you to start using x talent for Galakras" or "Hey, you need to use y ability on cooldown"... but something more along the lines of "I was chatting with a resto shaman about Galakras the other day, and he said he has success on that fight using x talent, and y ability on cooldown because he finds it helps lessen the threat of z mechanic".

For example, when I do Galakras on my resto shaman, if I'm in the tower group, I use my Windwalk totem to instantly mass dispel the slow effect the mini boss does for Tower 1. The cooldown doesn't let me use it every time he does the debuff, but it helps the tower group get secured.

If dps'ers/tanks are letting the NPCs take Fractures, I toss a Riptide to them, and proceed to launch Chain Heal off of that NPC every time I cast it until the NPC is fully healed up, because if I don't target the NPC for the Chain Heal, the game might not choose the NPC to be included in the heal (ie... I might be launching Chain Heal off the NPC for the rest of the fight, since the NPCs have so much frickin' health that if even only a few Fractures get them, it's a lot of work to get them back to full... but better to be safe than sorry, and have a wipe from an NPC dying. Healers' only hope to keep them from dying in a group who's letting Fractures through is to start healing them the minute they have any kind of health deficit - don't wait until they're low on health).
Edited by Iiritha on 11/28/2013 9:31 AM PST
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Thanks, I appreciate your input.
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90 Night Elf Priest
9630
In a situation like that, your options may be limited unless you are the raid leader or at least healing lead, which is uncommon in a 10 man group. It really sounds to me like the group you are with right now defines a casual raid group. There is absolutely nothing wrong a casual raid group. People coming together to play and laugh over mistakes and see some progress can be great fun. If this is supposed to be a progression minded group, then it is time for some coaching.

If coaching happens, it needs to happen privately, and it needs to happen for anyone who is under performing. As Iritha stated, you want to avoid making people feel singled out or picked at.The DPS and healers who are under performing need to know they are under performing.From there, you can either direct them to do their own research to make improvements or some one can do the research for them and coach them specifically. If people don't improve, they can be replaced. That's not to say that everyone must be perfect. Just improved enough to help get the progression levels your guild/raid wants.

If the guild/raid chooses not to coach, critique, or sit people who are not performing then it sounds like it may be time to look for a new guild or raid. Making choices like that can be really hard. I just did that a few months ago. My old raid was very much a casual guild like yours sounds to be and I found that it just didn't meet my needs. A friend and I just formed our own guild and I am much happier with the progression I have.

Best of luck to you!!

Zen

Edit: at 20k spirit, your druid is likely very much aware of the size of backpack that has been required of them and is trying to account for it.
Edited by Zoevil on 11/28/2013 9:05 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
15605
HPS numbers are usually lower if you 3 heal fights that are commonly 2 healed because theres only so much damage to heal. Fights in normal SoO that can be 2 healed for an average team I think should be Immer, Protectors, Norushen, Sha of Pride, Galak, Nazgrim, Spoils, Siegecrafter, Paragons and Garrosh. The other fights depend on your strat, gear, skill etc.

If you made either your shammy or your pally 2 heal with the druid you could see a significant improvement in their hps because, again, theres only so much damage to be healed, to no of damage divided by 2 healers should have better results the no of damage divided by 3 healers, except 3 heal intensive fights like thok that should be seeing all healers doing high hps.

However, your Galak example seems to show that the others just arent as reactive or proactive as your druid and maybe you should consider recruiting? Its ok to have a healer thats obviously the strongest of the bunch but when you get to fights that need to be 2 healed because of crazy enrage timers you're gonna suffer...
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90 Worgen Druid
6830
"-The druid is too aggressive with healing and doesn't leave anything for them to heal (this shouldn't be possible vs. a paladin, should it?)"

Druids are not the best "snipers"...

Seriously 1 healer doin 65-85% of total healing with 2 other healers in the group? How is that even possible?
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90 Draenei Priest
12870
Seriously 1 healer doin 65-85% of total healing with 2 other healers in the group? How is that even possible?


On some fights it's easy to do depending on class. I can basically solo heal normal Sha of Pride on both of my priests. Doing 60%+ of the healing on that fight isn't that uncommon with all of the DA absorbs you can build up with a stacked raid.

If they are wiping on Galakras before the burn then there is a good chance for logs to show one healer doing 50+% of the healing on the raid if they are left on the bottom. Numbers on that fight tend to not even out until the burn phase. Lets face it, there really is no damage to heal up on the towers so any healer(s) who go up there are bound to not look good in the log reports.
Edited by Tiesha on 11/28/2013 9:34 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
10265
Only other thing that raised an eyebrow is that our Druid is rocking almost 20k spirit, which is about 8k more than either other healer. Yet at the end of a boss fight (the ones where we don't wipe...) the Druid will be down to maybe 20% mana while the other healers will still have half their mana or more.


Most normal mode druids are sitting around 12K Spirit, so your druid has a lot more regen than is reasonable. But she/he is still ending fights at 20% while the other two (who have a lot less regen) are ending fights with 50%ish mana indicates that the paladin and shaman are not doing much of anything. If the problem was the druid somehow sniping heals, they should all be ending fight with low mana and have high overhealing. From what you have told us, it seems that the paladin and shaman are sitting back and letting the druid do all the work, and your druid knows this (judging by the 20k Spirit).

The shaman and paladin really need to start working harder. Paladins have an absorb that gets placed on targets they heal, so your paladin should be getting a good portion of the total healing due to absorbs preventing healable damage.
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90 Tauren Druid
8710
Wait what...normal mode Druid with 20k spirit?
And you're 3healing?

How many times is he using genesis/fight?

I smell deliberate snipezors w/nothing but rejuv and genesis-.-

Tell your Holy Pally to run Sacred shield for a crap fight like normal sha. 3healing that could be entirely sniped by a disc priest or Holy Pally. (SS being harder to snipe - I assume - I am no pally player)

400k hps on normal seems quite excessive for any group that is 3healing without deliberate cheese and intervention by said 400k healer.

As for your shaman, sorry but no excuse there. Should be step for step pretty close to your average Resto Druid.

And finally, if your group is wiping on Galakras towers and your druid is doing by far the most healing....That's your problem.
Send the druid up there and the other 2 healers should stay below. There's no possible way the druid still tops your healing on that fight during 90% of the encounter.
Druid can do towers faster, roar, heal on the move, allowing group to be back down faster. Also, they can preemptively jump down from the tower if necessary (while leaving shroom and tower group hotted) in case of emergency.

Staying down below is trivial; Requires more healing, but it's not hard.(thus tower group healer will look lower on meters) If you fail down below then that's a raid awareness problem; Don't stand in bad. Pick up the adds better.
Edited by Tonydanza on 11/28/2013 10:12 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14460
If your druid doesn't go oom, then you are overhealing. Bring 2 from now on so the fights are shorter.
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90 Worgen Priest
15415
If your druid doesn't go oom, then you are overhealing. Bring 2 from now on so the fights are shorter.


I'd say this, and also to kick the 2nd healer's butt into gear. Even if you don't, I'd suggest your druid drop some spirit (2k or so) and go for more mastery. If he goes oom, fine. If he drops more than that and actually forces the other healers to do more work, then that will be overall better for your raid group. The goal is to finish a fight at as close to 0 mana as possible, so ending at 20% with 20k spirit and the other two at 50%+ means he 1) has too much spirit and 2)the other healers are slacking way too much and you should drop one.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150

One thing that has become really obvious is a growing healing disparity between our healers. We heal with a Druid, a Shaman, and a Paladin. On any given night, it's common for our Druid to do 65-85% of the healing, with the remainder split among the Shaman and Paladin. On a recent fight, our Druid was pushing almost 400k HPS while the Shaman and Paladin were both doing about 45k HPS.


400k HPS? Are you sure that number is right? I don't think my team has put out 400k combined with 3 healers. Are you sure it's not something like 140k? heck, even 240k? (which is still crazy high). I'm just trying to think of what fight would require that much healing.

I top out around 120-140k 2-healing fights with another pally. Excluding a couple gimmick fights (like ICC Dreamwalker, or Tsulong), I don't think I've ever seen my HPS break 200k more than once (sustained). On the fights I have 3 healed, one of us normally drops down to around 80k or so, just because we don't have that much left to heal. Damage just isn't coming in fast enough.

That said.. Druids have a couple nice advantages content wise this expansion. The shrooms help alot with location based healing, and this tier is relatively stack friendly. That should help the pally and the shaman as well though. But... an equally gear pally should be able to pump out 45k without batting an eye. heck they should be able to Holy Light their way to 45k, using just IH/absorbs and get pretty close to that.
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90 Worgen Druid
6830

One thing that has become really obvious is a growing healing disparity between our healers. We heal with a Druid, a Shaman, and a Paladin. On any given night, it's common for our Druid to do 65-85% of the healing, with the remainder split among the Shaman and Paladin. On a recent fight, our Druid was pushing almost 400k HPS while the Shaman and Paladin were both doing about 45k HPS.


400k HPS? Are you sure that number is right? I don't think my team has put out 400k combined with 3 healers. Are you sure it's not something like 140k? heck, even 240k? (which is still crazy high). I'm just trying to think of what fight would require that much healing.

I top out around 120-140k 2-healing fights with another pally. Excluding a couple gimmick fights (like ICC Dreamwalker, or Tsulong), I don't think I've ever seen my HPS break 200k more than once (sustained). On the fights I have 3 healed, one of us normally drops down to around 80k or so, just because we don't have that much left to heal. Damage just isn't coming in fast enough.

That said.. Druids have a couple nice advantages content wise this expansion. The shrooms help alot with location based healing, and this tier is relatively stack friendly. That should help the pally and the shaman as well though. But... an equally gear pally should be able to pump out 45k without batting an eye. heck they should be able to Holy Light their way to 45k, using just IH/absorbs and get pretty close to that.


Could be mechanics... Due to the healing buff on heroic 10 Norushen last night; I managed to end at 350K+, not sure how much that equates to without counting the buff's contribution.

So I can definitely see better heroic healers than me pulling 400K on 10.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
[quote]Could be mechanics... Due to the healing buff on heroic 10 Norushen last night; I managed to end at 350K+, not sure how much that equates to without counting the buff's contribution.

So I can definitely see better heroic healers than me pulling 400K on 10.


I didn't get the impression he was talking about heroics though. Just normals. Especially when he said he went back to Flex to check the comp, and still wiped on Gala.

I just want to make sure we're all talking the same language. Is the OP including Overheals, not including them, etc. Is he only seeing part of the reporting. Which program is he using. All these things may create a false impression of what is actually going on.

I'm not saying that the Druid isn't doing the majority of the heals, but the number just struct me as odd for normal. That just seems like way too much damage for most of the fights.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
That might have been a slight exaggeration but he's definitely over 300k on several fights. We don't use World of Logs but by looking at Recount his top 3 heals are Rejuvenation, Wild Mushroom: Bloom, and Efflorescence on most fights.

I do notice on many fights, there will be a huge AoE damage burst on the raid, the Shaman will drop Healing Tide Totem or something similar, but it's like OOPS SORRY all damage just got healed by the mushroom exploding lol.

Is Genesis something that shows up in Recount? I don't see anything with that name.
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90 Worgen Druid
6830
That might have been a slight exaggeration but he's definitely over 300k on several fights. We don't use World of Logs but by looking at Recount his top 3 heals are Rejuvenation, Wild Mushroom: Bloom, and Efflorescence on most fights.

I do notice on many fights, there will be a huge AoE damage burst on the raid, the Shaman will drop Healing Tide Totem or something similar, but it's like OOPS SORRY all damage just got healed by the mushroom exploding lol.

Is Genesis something that shows up in Recount? I don't see anything with that name.


Genesis won't show up; it just accelerates Rejuv.
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