Hunter pvp: a real discussion

90 Blood Elf Hunter
9915
I'm getting quite tired of sifting through information that includes various QQ and their contradictory counterparts, posts saying BM is da bomb but then saying it sucks because the pet dies in one hit, and then other seemingly scattered information that when added up together is completely meaningless.

I feel completely lost without stickies or any semblance of agreement...

What I really want to know is how the three specs relate with one another. I don't care that "hunters are broken in pvp."

What I do care about is the niches of the three specs, which seems to be superior, and most importantly why. Telling me, "Go BM because pet goes RAWR" tells me nothing. Neither does, "BM/SV/MM is the best spec atm." I would like to know, "Well, BM has xyz, which in this abc situation has a little more viability than def talent in MM/SV," or "When you have ghi stat, jkl spec becomes more viable because it affects mno abilities."

Saying that Cata is in 2 weeks and therefore the argument is moot also doesn't help. Learning how to pvp as a hunter now will positively affect how to play at 85 (and I really want to get into arena more so than I did in S8 or S7).


I would be indebted to anyone willing to take some time and spell out in a very clear reason to what makes the specs superior/inferior to each other. Nothing sticky detailed, just a paragraph or two.

I also have a chocolate chip cookie to anyone willing to comply =)
Reply Quote
3 Tauren Druid
0
Currently go BM because the damage is significantly less focus driven and more your pet eats whatever you tell it to eat. The problem with BM though is it lacks control. If you want to actually learn how to PVP as a hunter I reccomend MM or surv. Honestly there isn't alot of difference in pvp play style between survival and MM. MM has readiness, silencing shot, and perma daze. Survival has wyvern sting and shorter trap cooldowns. At 85 both specs will have entrapment and survival tactics. But without those MM loses alot of viability.

So I guess for now if you don't want to go BM which is probably the most viable of the three specs survival is the way to go. It has the free explosives off of LnL, the control that you need, and an additional CC.

You might run with a spec like this:http://www.wowhead.com/talent#cZcZIrMcMGrRs:RzsMVd0Mm
The points in toxicology and mirrored blades are essentially points that you can do w/e the *@@% you want with. If you don't put them there I would put them in trap mastery or point of no escape. You'll be getting LnL procs from your traps so you don't actually need black arrow which isn't a big loss seeing as it does %*@# for damage anyway. I would also to make sure to serpent sting. 10% damage is a lot. The glyphs are negotiable as well.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Hunter
9915
cookie for you :D
Reply Quote
3 Night Elf Priest
0
Beta hunter for 3 months here..

MM tree is laughable right now. No person in their right mind would spec this for PVP, and I have not seen anyone do so other than testing certain scenarios. Heck, it's not even used in PVE right now because of the poor state the talent tree is in. I have no idea what the devs were thinking when they came up with some of the talents, but judging by the posts here and on the beta forums I have a feeling that the devs know now. It's going to take a rework because buffing two shots that are only 8% and 4% of total damage respectively aren't going to fix this. You cannot buff arcane shot because it would screw with BM, and SV. So as of now do not spec into MM at 85 unless you want to be frustrated. This is the only tree with the self heal shot so it's sad that's it's so useless right now.

BM tree is decent. It's about 50-50 on the split with SV for PVP hunters. The issue though with BM hunters in cata is that they are not using Kill Command in PVP. It's just too screwy because your pet sometimes gets a mind of his own and goes off and attacks Billy Bob and his wife Norma Jean down on the bayou when you are trying to deal with Rob Roy up on the hill. When it's 1v1 though you can effectively jump them and be well into the distance and actually use kill command and BW to do some damage. Just hope he doesn't find you before he's less than 50% and you should be able to finish him off. Spirit Bond is still jacked up so you have no real way of self healing and since every tree and their mother has some kind of dot you will die if you kill them unless they are useless in PVP.

Survival.. This is my favorite tree right now only because they took marksman away from me with its useless talent tree. The sad thing though is that explosive shot gives you only two ticks of what is essentially every other classes DoT damage. We had brought this up in the beta forums quite a few times but there are some wishing explosive shot ticks last a bit longer because it's really no more powerful than other class dots. Black arrow is pretty useless again since the nerf of about a week ago. It's not something you really want to waste focus on if you are in a PVP situation. If I am full on focus sometimes I will, but it's out of habit I do it, and I know I probably shouldn't because if I use explosive shot then I will be OOF only having done about 8k damage with 1 DoT up on a person with 100k+ health. This is bad when they counter you for 30k and you have no way of healing it.


Not much more to say. Camo is a cool looking talent, but I don't really use it much since it seems every time I am using it someone sees me and pulls me out (even when standing still). It's one of those talents that against certain classes can be useful if you are out of combat and want to run away without having them target you. Like a pally or a warrior. Seems DKs have amazing range on their blood boils now and can knock you out from like 20 yards away. It's totally useless against rogues and druids since they just come up on you and kick the crap out of you anyway without you seeing them. They can still see you.

Not trying to be a Debbie Downer but there is a lot that needs to be fixed with the hunter class and I fear it's going to go live this way. Most people I talk to in the beta forum are probably scrapping their hunters for another class when Cata launches or at least until some of the glaring issues get fixed. Myself, I will probably level mine because that's just who I am.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Hunter
0
Though I'm not a pro hunter, and didn't really arena at all with her, I will say that the specs do seem to vary with playstyle, a lot. As fluff said, BM makes your pet eat things. The pet hits very hard, and there's less involvement from the hunter for actual damage. You basically macro kill command to your spacebar, and pretend you're on a moonbounce in-game.

MM seems (to me) to provide a little more burst with damage. Silencing shot is awesome with casters, and can actually be a gamebreaker in certain situations. Readiness is pretty helpful too, though i forget to hit it most of the time. To me, they key with MM is that you have to epic with your trap (and flare) placement. I'd say this is one of the easier specs to get a handle on, because your pet is there more for utility, and you rely less on procs to do damage in general.

SV. I started as SV when the patch hit, and i've recentely (today) gone back to it. it actually relies on traps, which can be hindering sometimes, but is beautiful when you get the synergy going. having your enemy trapped and unable to move, makes keeping distance a million times easier. My trouble is against casters. you don't have a silence, so you have less CC for them. Scatter shot is only good in certain situations. I read earlier on the forums about using deterrence to reflect fear/other CC's, and that is about as good as you're gonna get with survival. Mirrored blades is very helpful in that situation, though.

Overall, I prefer the playstyle of SV, over the other two. MM is probably the stronger spec at the moment just because of silencing shot. Contrary, to what fluff said, i would take black arrow because it's extra damage, and we need it, even though it blows at the moment.

That's all i got at the moment.
Reply Quote
3 Tauren Druid
0
For survival vs casters it's a I need to kill you somehow before you kill me. Feign casts and try to make sure they're always at range. Due to our decreased damage the possibility for killing a ranged class, which was almost entirely based on you killing them before they killed you while you run as much interference as possible on them, has shrunk quite a bit.
Reply Quote
3 Tauren Druid
0
Overall, I prefer the playstyle of SV, over the other two. MM is probably the stronger spec at the moment just because of silencing shot. Contrary, to what fluff said, i would take black arrow because it's extra damage, and we need it, even though it blows at the moment.

It's not extra damage if it does less than arcane and costs more focus. Then all it is is wasted focus.
Reply Quote
3 Night Elf Priest
0
Though I'm not a pro hunter, and didn't really arena at all with her, I will say that the specs do seem to vary with playstyle, a lot. As fluff said, BM makes your pet eat things. The pet hits very hard, and there's less involvement from the hunter for actual damage. You basically macro kill command to your spacebar, and pretend you're on a moonbounce in-game.

MM seems (to me) to provide a little more burst with damage. Silencing shot is awesome with casters, and can actually be a gamebreaker in certain situations. Readiness is pretty helpful too, though i forget to hit it most of the time. To me, they key with MM is that you have to epic with your trap (and flare) placement. I'd say this is one of the easier specs to get a handle on, because your pet is there more for utility, and you rely less on procs to do damage in general.


With dash broken you have to spec your pet into the 30% run speed buff, and charge. If neither are up you will have to wait to use kill command. It's not very reliable in rated PVP right now unless you bind pet attack to every shot and ability. The pet seems to run off on his own right now. You will see a 10k KC and wonder why the person you are on isn't taking damage. Then you realize your pet is on someone else. Also, I know you said you don't PVP much but bad idea to put kill command on space. :) It's there for jumping! :D

Nobody is using MM in cata right now. It's just not viable at all. I did try and the only think that was working even a little is just arcane spam until no focus, then use rapid fire to regen when they interrupt every single steady shot you shoot. Yes, that happens a lot in BGs. Fox isn't as good as people think. You get interrupted so much since people know that steady/cobra shot is a crutch you need.

Going to edit this:
If you are casual then by all means play a hunter. If you have fun now, and are casual you will still have fun in cata. I see quite a few in here that do like it that are totally casual players. That's fine. But if you want to actually compete and get into arenas/rated BGs on more of a competitive level then hunters need work before you can use them.. You will be a detriment to your team if you play a hunter in a competitive PVP group.
Edited by Alssa on 11/18/2010 5:01 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Hunter
2925
Overall, I prefer the playstyle of SV, over the other two. MM is probably the stronger spec at the moment just because of silencing shot. Contrary, to what fluff said, i would take black arrow because it's extra damage, and we need it, even though it blows at the moment.

It's not extra damage if it does less than arcane and costs more focus. Then all it is is wasted focus.


I only cast black arrow in PvP if I'm trying to dot someone up. Otherwise you're much better off using arcane.

Funnily enough, I dotted someone running past with BA & Serpent Sting + explosive. Then got charged by a warrior, dropped an ice trap and then lock and load proc'd (from the black arrow previously cast). Great timing :D
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Hunter
9915
thanks for all the great information guys; it really helps.
Reply Quote
3 Night Elf Priest
0
thanks for all the great information guys; it really helps.


NP man.. If you are casual you will be all good. If you will be trying to get the high ratings it might get a bit frustrating.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Hunter
0
Overall, I prefer the playstyle of SV, over the other two. MM is probably the stronger spec at the moment just because of silencing shot. Contrary, to what fluff said, i would take black arrow because it's extra damage, and we need it, even though it blows at the moment.

It's not extra damage if it does less than arcane and costs more focus. Then all it is is wasted focus.


I will agree with this with one caveat. A lot of times i'll put up SS and BA, then keep my distance and try to get them to hit some traps. that extra time with them taking damage is very helpful when kiting. I do understand its a crap-ton of focus, but it's nice to have that much less hp to deal with.
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Hunter
2925
Overall, I prefer the playstyle of SV, over the other two. MM is probably the stronger spec at the moment just because of silencing shot. Contrary, to what fluff said, i would take black arrow because it's extra damage, and we need it, even though it blows at the moment.

It's not extra damage if it does less than arcane and costs more focus. Then all it is is wasted focus.


I will agree with this with one caveat. A lot of times i'll put up SS and BA, then keep my distance and try to get them to hit some traps. that extra time with them taking damage is very helpful when kiting. I do understand its a crap-ton of focus, but it's nice to have that much less hp to deal with.


Well seeing as Arcane Shot doesn't have a cast time you can also cast that while moving rather than BA.
Reply Quote
47 Dwarf Hunter
580
I don't much like the SV DOT style of play, so I'll stick with marks. I think it's quite bad now, but it will probably be buffed
Reply Quote
85 Orc Hunter
0
Overall, I prefer the playstyle of SV, over the other two. MM is probably the stronger spec at the moment just because of silencing shot. Contrary, to what fluff said, i would take black arrow because it's extra damage, and we need it, even though it blows at the moment.

It's not extra damage if it does less than arcane and costs more focus. Then all it is is wasted focus.


I will agree with this with one caveat. A lot of times i'll put up SS and BA, then keep my distance and try to get them to hit some traps. that extra time with them taking damage is very helpful when kiting. I do understand its a crap-ton of focus, but it's nice to have that much less hp to deal with.


Well seeing as Arcane Shot doesn't have a cast time you can also cast that while moving rather than BA.

Mostly i mean for running out of range, and letting the DoT's do their work while neither of us can hit one another. Sorry if i wasn't clear about that.

And to make all future comments in context: all of what i mention here is about live. I'm not on beta, nor have even seen what any of it is. Some of the specs may suck giant octo-tentacle at 85, but i'm just giving my views on the current state of things :)
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Hunter
2925
Well seeing as Arcane Shot doesn't have a cast time you can also cast that while moving rather than BA.

Mostly i mean for running out of range, and letting the DoT's do their work while neither of us can hit one another. Sorry if i wasn't clear about that.

And to make all future comments in context: all of what i mention here is about live. I'm not on beta, nor have even seen what any of it is. Some of the specs may suck giant octo-tentacle at 85, but i'm just giving my views on the current state of things :)


Ahh got ya. Np man :)
Reply Quote
47 Dwarf Hunter
580
I wouldn't really worry

if hunters are bad in PvP, which they seem to be, they will be buffed. People will talk about how blizzard doesn't care about the class, etc, but this is just meaningless whining. The only problem is that it might take them a while

I think that MM will see changes fairly soon though, since so many talents and mechanics are just terrible. For example, steady shot SUCKS compared to cobra shot, but MM has tons of talents based around it. Steady should do more damage than cobra as MM.
Edited by Quentin on 11/18/2010 5:36 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Hunter
2330
Steady Shot needs to do a lot more damage period if they insist on our focus regen being crap.
Reply Quote
3 Night Elf Priest
0
I wouldn't really worry

if hunters are bad in PvP, which they seem to be, they will be buffed. People will talk about how blizzard doesn't care about the class, etc, but this is just meaningless whining. The only problem is that it might take them a while

I think that MM will see changes fairly soon though, since so many talents and mechanics are just terrible. For example, steady shot SUCKS compared to cobra shot, but MM has tons of talents based around it. Steady should do more damage than cobra as MM.


They can't buff steady shot. If they did then cobra shot would be useless. Even though cobra shot bumps up your time left on serpent sting if steady shot did more damage than it does now then people would just go for a manual refresh. It already does more damage, just not enough more to warrant using it over cobra shot.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]