I miss frost tanking

85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
So, if BCB isnt a tank talent, why is it in the blood tree? Wouldnt it make more sense to have it in frost? Or at least be in a lower tier so that frost can get to it?



Basically the only thing that can be figured is that it is a trap talent. one that looks good at first but horrid in play.

And about in reach of Frost, they are worried about DW unh. Not sure why it wasn't just renamed and put in deep frost and put the frost 2h talent in reach of blood/unh. But... eh...
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
Butchery and Hand of Doom are not taken by anyone. Sanguine Fortitude is a tank talent and it's deep Blood for PvP. Even if they moved it DPS specs wouldn't take it and you'd just force blood into Frost, so you're not actually creating a choice. They're not putting a raid buff as a t1 talent.

Butchery needs to be moved into another tree anyway. a leveling talent in blood makes no sense.

As it stands Frost is the only DW tree that doesn't have DW as a specialization. Which is creating 'interesting' issues about people who want blood DW and trying their damnedest to keep unholy from using 2 weapons. I wish they'd just bite the bullet and standardize it.
Edited by Mooclane on 11/19/2010 10:08 AM PST
Reply Quote
80 Undead Death Knight
2170
i miss tanking in frost. for me it came down to flavor, did you want your lock to specialize in demons, destruction, or affliction? your mage in fire, frost, or arcane? for me, i decide on the character creation screen what i want to make. i fell in love with frost tanking. the thought of being a frozen warrior, even on bare flesh, the strikes never cutting too deep through the tough, icy skin.

now that i fought the lich king, and this character cannot be what a originally designed him to be, well, i think he's gonna be retired. (probably still use him to post, for old time sakes) still irks me that they made a (what feels to me) quick 2-hander slap in to satisfy the blood dps players that didnt' want to go to unholy, or dual wield.

but now i'm going way off topic.

goodbye frost tank.
i'm gonna miss you.
rest easy Reaziel, you've earned it.

-edit-

my avatar still won't show? ah well.
Edited by Reaziel on 11/19/2010 10:05 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Human Death Knight
10380
They just miss the easy mode AoE - Now you actually have to tank...


Eh? We still have easy mode AoE. I mean, I feel as a matter of principle that I should tab-target on four-mob pulls, but glyphed DnD with the T10 bonus and a couple of blood boils sticks them to me like glue.

Oddly enough, I occasionally have trouble with single-target threat when a string of unavoided hits keeps me from using rune strike for a while. Fortunately, that's going away soon.
Edited by Sielas on 11/19/2010 10:11 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Orc Death Knight
6045
I miss having procs.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
Threat was irrelevant for everyone. Blood was superior for survival.


This

no. I saw many blood tanks have issues with aoe, especially large packs. there were minor aoe threat issues for several tanks. especially the staggered pickup adds.

and Bloods's survival was largely wasted outside of ICC hardmodes, making it irrelevant for almost all players.

Dont be so god damned presumptuous as to think that there was any significant or even insignificant amount of people in hard mode content. there was almost no one compared to the millions playing. a few guilds per server. even with 40 active separate accounts each, thats only 8,000-20,000 players.
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
ignoring the fact that you could tank normal modes as unholy which, again, has much better AoE threat which you are for some reason trumpeting as a big issue, hard mode or normal, if you're having survival issues, you're having survival issues. Which blood excels at. Having threat issues? Get someone to feed you tricks, or just let your off tank do it.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
I wouldnt mind this:

Nerves of Cold Steel
Increases your chance to hit with one-handed melee weapons by 3% and increases the damage done by your off-hand weapon by 25%. In addition, your Rune Strikes have a 100% chance to also deal damage with your offhand weapon.

.

That's all. I suggested it somewhere else and somebody said it would end up being completely dominant for threat (even though a tank would hit mainhand-only with every other strike). I guess Rune Strike is just that good.

By the way, what happens if you DRW when dual wielding? Does one weapon show up or two?
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
I'm sorry Xurk but having trouble picking up mobs has nothing to do with survival. Blood's survival put it ahead before the buff, as well as for those having difficulty pushing boss kills.

I loved frost as much as the next guy, but I also liked being a competitive raider, even if it was mostly in pugs. I was frost all the way through ToC because I liked the style but realized stepping into ICC that i had to make a change. Once I did, I found my survival had gone up by a lot.

I'm not trying to be presumptuous, only as honest as always. Frost was more enjoyable but blood had the survival advantage, normal or regular.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4880
So, if BCB isnt a tank talent, why is it in the blood tree? Wouldnt it make more sense to have it in frost? Or at least be in a lower tier so that frost can get to it?



Basically the only thing that can be figured is that it is a trap talent. one that looks good at first but horrid in play.

And about in reach of Frost, they are worried about DW unh. Not sure why it wasn't just renamed and put in deep frost and put the frost 2h talent in reach of blood/unh. But... eh...

Which is why my first suggestion was to just swap it with Threat of Thassarian, and make "Hitting with both weapons for main-hand attacks" a baseline Frost ability.

Butchery and Hand of Doom are not taken by anyone.

Really? I thought that the Frost DKs where all about the runic power generation, and Hand of Doom would fit in better the Unholy's PvP flavor.

Sanguine Fortitude is a tank talent and it's deep Blood for PvP. Even if they moved it DPS specs wouldn't take it and you'd just force blood into Frost, so you're not actually creating a choice.

Most other DPS specs have at least a few talents acessible to everyone to reduce incoming damage of one kind or another to help out the healers in Cata raids. This could be a DKs alternative to Blade Barrier.
DW tanks would be moving at least a few points into frost for Nerves anyway, and since 2-handed tanking would likely require a few less points in Blood since you are NOT specializing for DW, you have more points to play with.
If they wanted, any DK could also put points into Unholy to reach Morbidity and Desceration for easier AOE tanking.

They're not putting a raid buff as a t1 talent.

Ok, what else do you suggest then? If you dont want it as a tier 1 talent, I can see it fitting into almost any tree.

Butchery needs to be moved into another tree anyway. a leveling talent in blood makes no sense.

Leveling talents need to end up somewhere, but I agree that it can probably come out of Blood without hurting anyone.

As it stands Frost is the only DW tree that doesn't have DW as a specialization. Which is creating 'interesting' issues about people who want blood DW

I want blood DW, but I dont want it unless its going to be viable. I'm trying to make this a "fun" option, and not because I'm on some sort of crusade to prove that DW tanking is inherently better (or worse).
Giving Enhance shamans DW at level 10 was a real smart move, but I dont know why Blizz locked non-fury warriors out of DW. For leveling I thinks its viable (and fun) in any spec.
Taking away the talents that where "traps" was good for Blizzard, but I would love to see a model where there are multiple "right" choices, depending on player preference and play style.

and trying their damnedest to keep unholy from using 2 weapons. I wish they'd just bite the bullet and standardize it.

Like I said, standardization of the DPS specs is something I can get behind because you already have a big choice between "Frost DW DPS w/ runic power" and "Unholy 2-handers w/ faster runes". Since we only have 1 Tank spec I think that its a great opportunity to bring back what was a very unique and very fun mechanic that is optional.
Edited by Drelnu on 11/19/2010 11:08 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
2rp/5seconds isn't worth 2 talent points, Hand of Doom is a pvp talent, you're right. But we were talking about reducing blood bloat and stripping out 2 talents they don't take doesn't actually reduce bloat. Sanguine Fort as a low fruit would not be taken for pve dps, reduces subspec choices (because blood will have to get it), and would screw with pvp.

Abom's Might is not going to be a T1 talent. They (blizzard) are not sticking a raid buff in T1. And it fits in blood because Frost provides Attack Speed haste and Unholy provides the magic damage debuff.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
I still tank heroics as frost. It's kind of awesome, just like I'm kind of awesome.


Being humble, eh? Just kinda?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
13905
Well, then you're than arms warrior who throws on tanking gear and goes and tanks something.

With enough gear you can tank lesser content in a dps spec.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4880
2rp/5seconds isn't worth 2 talent points, Hand of Doom is a pvp talent, you're right. But we were talking about reducing blood bloat and stripping out 2 talents they don't take doesn't actually reduce bloat. Sanguine Fort as a low fruit would not be taken for pve dps, reduces subspec choices (because blood will have to get it), and would screw with pvp.

Abom's Might is not going to be a T1 talent. They (blizzard) are not sticking a raid buff in T1. And it fits in blood because Frost provides Attack Speed haste and Unholy provides the magic damage debuff.


alright, look, I'm trying to be patient here and I value your expertise, but you're going to have to start making some suggestions of your own rather than just shooting down my ideas.
If I take out Butchery (not worth it, according to you), Hand of Doom (which we agree is a PvP talent), and BCB (crap), I'm left with a fairly solid 32 point tank spec (including Sanguine Fortitude), plus Improved Blood Tap (of questionable value, IMO), and Abominations Might.
Since you defined bloat as being "talents that discourage you from sub-speccing" I'm having trouble seeing where all this "bloat" is at. If we want to have ANY choices at all, we need to be willing to compromise a little on the exact composition of our 31-point core spec.
If I put a few more talents into Blood that are required for DW tanking, it just means you can leave out a few of the talents not directly related to Damage reduction and EH, like Bladed Armor and Crimson Scourge.
Please remember, I'm not trying to take anything away from 2-handed tanking, or even make them equivalent in every aspect (or entirely rebuild DKs, but thats what this seems to be leading to). I just want it to be option, even for casual, PuG, or 5-man tanking.

Assuming that a DW tank spends more talent points than a 2-handed tank to get more avoidance, perhaps the loss of the "Sanguine Fortitude" wont be that big of a deal. Since the +stam of 2h lets you absorb more damage, the idea behind DW would be that you arent taking that damage in the first place.


Note: My 32-point "core spec" can be found here for your critique.
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#jchG0sMrusd



Well, then you're than arms warrior who throws on tanking gear and goes and tanks something.

With enough gear you can tank lesser content in a dps spec.

I tanked all the way from 70 to 80 as Fury, simply swapping out my armor and one 2-hander for a shield.
It was much awesomeness.
I heard "wait, how are you using a 2-handed weapon AND a shield...." at least once a run :P
Edited by Drelnu on 11/19/2010 11:48 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
I made my suggestion. "Make Dual Wield the frost specialization".

Imp Blood Tap is a Survival talent. Abom's Might is a static ability based entirely on raid comp.

If you want DW to be an option for casual and 5-mans we'll overgear Heroics after the first tier.

You get about 80 more stam with a 2hander.

Reply Quote
80 Night Elf Death Knight
1840
perhaps the loss of the "Sanguine Fortitude" wont be that big of a deal.


Yeah, an additional 30% DR(50% total) probably isn't important for a tank cooldown.

What's the big deal regarding dual wield vs a single two-hander? What is attractive about it? When playing my Warrior through TBC, while dpsing I was generally Fury as it was considered the highest dps spec. However, I spent a good deal of time in BT as Arms for the Blood Frenzy debuff and I had just as much(if not more) fun playing that spec, and it had absolutely nothing to do with how many weapons I was wielding but rather the playstyle of each spec(MS/slam was quite possibly the most engaging rotation ever devised).

The obsession with dual wielding is only slightly less juvenile as the jubilance you displayed regarding dual wielding two-handers. Titan's Grip was a bad move on Blizzard's fault implemented to assuage the cries of twelve year old Warriors and pigeonholing the rest of us into using two DKP-costly weapons instead of one-handers with no actual difference in gameplay, as both TG and SMF will play extremely similarly and the same is the case with Blood if dual-wielding were allowed. The numbers(courtesy of Lichloathe) already show that dual-wielding is currently a loss in every way, and propping it up with otherwise useless talents will just give Blizzard a more difficult time balancing our own tank class, let alone ours with the three others.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4880
I made my suggestion. "Make Dual Wield the frost specialization".

Yes, that divides and defines that 2 DPS specs very nicely, but does absolutely nothing for myself and the many others who would like to see DW tanking being a reasonable option again.


Imp Blood Tap is a Survival talent.
Abom's Might is a static ability based entirely on raid comp.

If you woul dlike to suggest some alternatives to decreasing the "Blood bloat", which was your issue in the first place, please go ahead and state them. Apparently my suggestions where not to your liking.

If you want DW to be an option for casual and 5-mans we'll overgear Heroics after the first tier.

Casual doenst mean "not progression". It just means people who arent fighting to get world firsts. Most guilds will work with anyone who fulfills their role decently.
Plus, right now most DW tanking isnt even an option for 5-mans.

You get about 80 more stam with a 2hander.

and how much more avoidance can you get with DWing? right now we dont even have the option to play-test that style because the game mechanics make it truely attrocious. I at least want the ability to experiment, and Blizzad knows that tweaking talents is the easiest thing in the world (they've been doing it all Beta).
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4880
perhaps the loss of the "Sanguine Fortitude" wont be that big of a deal.


Yeah, an additional 30% DR(50% total) probably isn't important for a tank cooldown.

OK, I figured I was gonna get !@%* for saying that. perhaps a better way of putting it would be that if a tank makes the choice to DW, they lose some other options elsewhere, in terms of subspeccing.


What's the big deal regarding dual wield vs a single two-hander? What is attractive about it? When playing my Warrior through TBC, while dpsing I was generally Fury as it was considered the highest dps spec. However, I spent a good deal of time in BT as Arms for the Blood Frenzy debuff and I had just as much(if not more) fun playing that spec, and it had absolutely nothing to do with how many weapons I was wielding but rather the playstyle of each spec(MS/slam was quite possibly the most engaging rotation ever devised).

uhm, my entire argument basically boils down to "I prefer this kind of playstyle because I consider it to be more fun, and I would like Blizzard to add a few talents that make it NOT CRAP".
How is your alternate-spec for Warrior DPS a more valid decision than my alternate-talent points for DW tank DKs?

The obsession with dual wielding is only slightly less juvenile as the jubilance you displayed regarding dual wielding two-handers.

I thought this game was supposed to be fun.
Say it with me know. "FUUUUUUN".
My irrational excitement over being able DW ridiculously oversized weapons has no bearing on the basis of arguments for the mechanics of other classes. And how is my preference for DW tanking any more of an "obsession" than some players preference for 2-handed tanking?

Titan's Grip was a bad move on Blizzard's fault implemented to assuage the cries of twelve year old Warriors and pigeonholing the rest of us into using two DKP-costly weapons instead of one-handers with no actual difference in gameplay,

which is why Blizzard gave warriors a way to opt out.
now I want an "opt-in" for DW tanking.

as both TG and SMF will play extremely similarly and the same is the case with Blood if dual-wielding were allowed.

So? Fury and Arms are to different spec, so I consider it reasonable that they have very different rotations. 1-handed and 2-handed Fury are the same spec, as would be DW and 2-h tanking. If we think choices are a good thing, then does it really matter if they are minor or major differences? Like I said, I dont want to take anything away from 2-handed tanking. If DW was the only option I'd be fighting to get 2-handed tanking included as well.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4880
(cont. from above)

The numbers(courtesy of Lichloathe) already show that dual-wielding is currently a loss in every way,

DW tanking is only a BIG penalty because a few particular mechanics make it so, and thats why I'm trying to change. Dont point at the live version of the game and claim that the completely arbitrary rules that Blizzard can alter at any time are a valid reason to NOT TRY and change something.

The tank stats we really care about are: Threat, Total Health, Effective Health, Avoidance, and right?
Except that in Wrath threat wasn't a factor. Now its harder for a tank to keep threat, but most good tanks manage it just fine, right? If a 2-handed tank has a 30% lead on DPS and is increasing that, and a DW tank is holding steady at 15% lead, is the end result any different? Although +hit wasnt to much of an issue in Wrath either, maybe in Cata tanks will be more susceptible to misses and DW could have made for steadier threat generation without stacking for the stat.
In Wrath, Total Health was king, because of the rather indirect reason that Healer mana had become effectively infinite, so the only way for tanks to be in any danger at all was for Blizz to ramp the spike damage up to 11. So far we've seen the decline of mana regen for healers, and Blizz keeps telling us that damage in Cata raids will less spiky. All this works out, in my mind, to make Total health less important. (not UNimportant, just less critical).
For our last 2 stats: aren't Effective Health and Avoidance really the same thing? If I heal myself for 10% of the damage taken, or take 10% less damage, isnt that equivalent?
In wrath, avoidance was easy (or at least possible) to cap, and wasnt worthwhile when bosses where spiking for 60%+ damage in one hit. Everything I've read for Cata seems to indicate that avoidance will be more important this time around. And since 2-handers dont come with avoidance, it seems like an excellent niche for DWing to fill.

and propping it up with otherwise useless talents will just give Blizzard a more difficult time balancing our own tank class, let alone ours with the three others.

You could say druid ranged-spell damage is crap until you prop it up with all those otherwise useless balance talents.
If Blizzard had designed enough talents to make DW tanking better from the start, and 2-handed tanking was only valuable to noob PuGers who just cared about how high they could push their max stam, would we be on opposite sides of this debate?
You where the one who pointed out that the differences between DW tanking and 2H tanking would be minor, right? So if they can balance 2 roles in one tree (feral DPS) and 2 specs in one class that accomplish the same thing (priest healing) I dont think this would be out of Blizzards reach.
What I've suggested is still less than the changes they made to pally healers and other classe, all in the name of balance. Remember, balance =/= identical.


If you dont like DW tanking, then NOTHING WOULD CHANGE for you. I recognize that currently DW tanking is pretty craptastic. If a DW DK shows up in your raid tomorrow, yuo'd be perfectly right to boot him. But I am trying to invent some suggestions that would make DW tanking NOT BE crap.
I dont understand the hostility that some people seem to have towards improving DW tanking so it can at least compete with 2H tanking.


Edit: sorry for the walls of text but I got a little worked up and wanted to address every point that I could.
Edited by Drelnu on 11/19/2010 1:19 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]