I miss frost tanking

85 Tauren Warrior
8120
Yes, that divides and defines that 2 DPS specs very nicely, but does absolutely nothing for myself and the many others who would like to see DW tanking being a reasonable option again.


Now now, it does do something. It kills the issue completely.

If you woul dlike to suggest some alternatives to decreasing the "Blood bloat", which was your issue in the first place, please go ahead and state them. Apparently my suggestions where not to your liking.


A complete overhaul of the blood tree, instead of just stripping the tank talents out of the other trees and jamming them into the other.

Casual doenst mean "not progression". It just means people who arent fighting to get world firsts. Most guilds will work with anyone who fulfills their role decently.
Plus, right now most DW tanking isnt even an option for 5-mans.


Actually that's exactly what it means. Progression is relative. And Right now DW tanking is totally an option. As is fury. As is just soloing the dungeon by yourself.

and how much more avoidance can you get with DWing?


I think you misinterpreted me. 80 stam isn't that much. It's like, a gem.

For our last 2 stats: aren't Effective Health and Avoidance really the same thing? If I heal myself for 10% of the damage taken, or take 10% less damage, isnt that equivalent?


EH is useful for every type of damage. Avoidance has issues in the short term. We did not stack stam because we capped dodge.
Edited by Mooclane on 11/19/2010 1:06 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Druid
4880
Now now, it does do something. It kills the issue completely.

yeah, thanks for that.

A complete overhaul of the blood tree, instead of just stripping the tank talents out of the other trees and jamming them into the other.

That does what? replaces most of the current talents with differently names ones that do the same thing?
Yes it got packed with tank talents, but it also lost most of its DPS talents. I would already term what they did a "complete overhaul".
If you want to be more specific though, go ahead.

Actually that's exactly what it means. Progression is relative. And Right now DW tanking is totally an option. As is fury. As is just soloing the dungeon by yourself.

ok, fine, the I guess I do want DW tanking to be viable for progression.

I think you misinterpreted me. 80 stam isn't that much. It's like, a gem.

I post walls of text specifically so people CANT mistinterpret me. So what point are you trying to make here? I that what you're trying to say is that the EH from having a slightly higher stamina pool was the important part? Ok, then my counter is we just need to buff avoidance up to the point where they are equal.

EH is useful for every type of damage. Avoidance has issues in the short term. We did not stack stam because we capped dodge.

I assume by that you mean "EH heals us for more over a long fight", and "stacking avoidance can get crushed from spike damage". Since you hit more often with DW, I could easily see the Blood Parasite talent (already in the game) healing for more from DW tanking, compensating for the decrease in percentage-based healing from other abilities, like Rune Tap.
And, since most of Blizzards official posts indicate that they want to reduce the danger from spike damage in Cata raids, I'm having trouble seeing this as a valid point.

Rather than telling me why DW tanking doesnt work with the current model, why not try telling my what about my fixes isnt good enough, or needs reconsideration.



I need to leave my computer now, but I'll try to check in a few hours to pick up the discussion.
Edited by Drelnu on 11/19/2010 1:31 PM PST
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82 Draenei Warrior
6995
The problem with DW tanking is firstly, this thread is about frost tanking, not DW tanking, and for another, it takes focus away from 2h tanking which is what Blizzard are wanting DKs to do. They might work it out at some point in the future but it's not what they want to do right now.

Secondly, you can't make DW the frost specialisation or anything like that because they want 2h and dw frost to both be equally viable.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5990
The problem with DW tanking is firstly, this thread is about frost tanking, not DW tanking, and for another, it takes focus away from 2h tanking which is what Blizzard are wanting DKs to do. They might work it out at some point in the future but it's not what they want to do right now.

Secondly, you can't make DW the frost specialisation or anything like that because they want 2h and dw frost to both be equally viable.

Both DW and 2h Frost can be viable even if Frost's specialization is DW, as long as learning that specialization doesn't make you "forget" how to hold a 2-handed weapon.

Edit3: Edited out my two previous edits, since after research, my original edit-added statement wasn't backed up by blue posts as I thought it was. Not remembering stuff correctly feels bad.
Edited by Arò on 11/19/2010 3:11 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Druid
4880
The problem with DW tanking is firstly, this thread is about frost tanking, not DW tanking, and for another, it takes focus away from 2h tanking which is what Blizzard are wanting DKs to do. They might work it out at some point in the future but it's not what they want to do right now.

Secondly, you can't make DW the frost specialisation or anything like that because they want 2h and dw frost to both be equally viable.

Yay! I hijacked a thread!
but seriously, Most frost tanks where DW tanks; and there where very few in any good DW blood tanks.

I would like to see the post(s) where Blizzard describes how they do not want DK tanks to be DW, so I can read for myself what they wrote. Ultimately, its the Dev team I need to convice.

If Blizz wants there to be two seperate DPS specs, and at least one of those specs to support DWing, why can't we have the one tank spec include a few talents to support DW tanking.

Frankly, since Blizz is trying to do away with dedicated PvP specs, I'm not entirely sure why they need 2 seperate specs (frost AND unholy) to support 2H DPS. I could see them doing alot with keeping Frost for DW and Unholy for 2H.

Back on topic though. Blizz might not have originally intended to make DW tanking viable, but the player base will try out anything they can, and we often move in unexpected directions.
I would encourage people to consider the possibility, given its uniue flavor of fun.
Edited by Drelnu on 11/20/2010 5:42 AM PST
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82 Draenei Warrior
6995
Nono, if you make DW the frost specialisation, it very strongly implies that's what you should be doing. The fact that they have 2h talents in frost tree implies that they want it to be viable too.

And I'm too busy healing a dungeon to look up the quote right now but it effectively was, they don't want to put resources into making dw tanking viable until 2h tanking is viable. If my memory serves me correctly.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5990
Nono, if you make DW the frost specialisation, it very strongly implies that's what you should be doing. The fact that they have 2h talents in frost tree implies that they want it to be viable too.

And I'm too busy healing a dungeon to look up the quote right now but it effectively was, they don't want to put resources into making dw tanking viable until 2h tanking is viable. If my memory serves me correctly.

Yeah, it seems you're right (or at least I think- I can't even quite find the quote for that). I thought I remembered a post about the change where ToT included Rune Strike, or when Nerubian Carapace was added, but I can't find any evidence of it. Maybe I imagined it.

The only thing I did find is them saying they wanted to be careful with supporting DW, since DW tends to dominate when they allow it (although I believe that was with respect to DPS).
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85 Human Death Knight
11920
ok, fine, the I guess I do want DW tanking to be viable for progression.


DWing can be viable and also not be the best. You can DW tank. If you tanked in WotLK as Frost even when Blood was superior then you're not so concerned about little numbers and can tank with DW Blood now.
Edited by Communism on 11/19/2010 4:49 PM PST
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80 Human Death Knight
1485
I have a theory (dunno if it's true of not), but I think Blizz decided to do away with DW tanking due to the difficulty of balancing tanks.

Suppose blizzard allows for both DW and 2H tanking. There are no tanking 2-H weapons (outside of Stamina and reforged Mastery at the moment), so Blizzard has to make it up in some way, either through Runeforging or Blood Presence.

Now suppose DW is viable. This might mess things up due to a DK being able to wield two additional tanking equipments in addition to enjoying the benefits of being a DK that was supposed to make up their shortfall.

Again, my theory, but I really have no way (nor the mathematical prowess to prove it).
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85 Human Death Knight
11920
I have a theory (dunno if it's true of not), but I think Blizz decided to do away with DW tanking due to the difficulty of balancing tanks.

Suppose blizzard allows for both DW and 2H tanking. There are no tanking 2-H weapons (outside of Stamina and reforged Mastery at the moment), so Blizzard has to make it up in some way, either through Runeforging or Blood Presence.

Now suppose DW is viable. This might mess things up due to a DK being able to wield two additional tanking equipments in addition to enjoying the benefits of being a DK that was supposed to make up their shortfall.

Again, my theory, but I really have no way (nor the mathematical prowess to prove it).


That isn't a problem, though. The gain of any tanking stats is very minimal and we already know that Blizzard doesn't balance so tightly.
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80 Undead Death Knight
8015
I don't really think Frost tanking was bad, it was just worse than Blood. Frost was still better than bringing a warrior. lol
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80 Human Death Knight
2805
On the DW/2H argument, I have a quick suggestion- why not move Threat of Thassarian up to first tier in a configuration like the Priest Archangel/Evangelism talents- 2 in Nerves of Cold Steel and 1 in Threat of Thassarian, with a prerequisite of having 2 in Nerves.

The only problems I can see in either Blood or Unholy is Sudden Doom and Blood Caked Blade/Bloodworms. Maybe change the talents so it only procs half as much when Dual Wielding, and it seems like balance should be roughly even between the two, changing depending on the items you have access to.

Anyone see something I've missed?

--EDIT--
The one thing I miss most about DW was the weapon choice- you could chose to gear for threat or survivability. It honestly wasn't that big of a deal; i.e. you could easily keep threat with fast weapons, you just had to pay attention. 2% avoidance didn't matter in most boss fights, but the ability to change a small bit of your gear nearly effortlessly was nice.
Edited by Nalv on 11/19/2010 8:15 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
I see three arguments here.

1. "I miss frost tanking because I liked the flexibility of having multiple tanking trees."
2. "I miss frost tanking because it let me tank while dual-wielding."
3. "I miss frost tanking because I liked the theme of a frost tank."

I fall squarely into the last category. I really wish they could have had two viable tank specs, a frost one based on mitigation and a blood one based on selfhealing.
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85 Tauren Warrior
8120
yeah, thanks for that.


/shrug

I have always considered dw tanking a gimmick on the level of 2h Enhance or Warlock tanks.

Yes it got packed with tank talents, but it also lost most of its DPS talents. I would already term what they did a "complete overhaul".
If you want to be more specific though, go ahead.


It lost most of it's DPS talents and gained all the other tank talents (except AMZ). That's not an overhaul, that's condensing. Blood needs choices. Actual choices. As aggravating as it will be to haul around 2 tank specs, the fact that Prot can have 2 distinct builds depending on what you're doing makes it fairly unique. Blood is just a bunch of talents you have to take.

I post walls of text specifically so people CANT mistinterpret me. So what point are you trying to make here? I that what you're trying to say is that the EH from having a slightly higher stamina pool was the important part? Ok, then my counter is we just need to buff avoidance up to the point where they are equal.


I post short succinct sentences so people understand what I'm saying and don't fall asleep before I get to the point. Go back and read the point I was responding to.

Since the +stam of 2h lets you absorb more damage, the idea behind DW would be that you arent taking that damage in the first place.


you only gain like 80 stam with a 2hander. You gain a paltry amount of dodge and parry which you'll probably reforge into mastery anyway. My point was the stat difference is probably insignificant.

I assume by that you mean "EH heals us for more over a long fight", and "stacking avoidance can get crushed from spike damage". Since you hit more often with DW, I could easily see the Blood Parasite talent (already in the game) healing for more from DW tanking, compensating for the decrease in percentage-based healing from other abilities, like Rune Tap.
And, since most of Blizzards official posts indicate that they want to reduce the danger from spike damage in Cata raids, I'm having trouble seeing this as a valid point.


What does healing have to do with EH? Healing has nothing to do with EH. And Blizzard indicates a lot of things but last time I checked Heroic Raids were smacking tanks up fairly decently. More stamina is always useful (up to the point where your TTL becomes longer than the fight itself). Avoidance is both RNG, completely useless for Magic damage (which is generally what kills tanks) and is worse than mastery.

Rather than telling me why DW tanking doesnt work with the current model, why not try telling my what about my fixes isnt good enough, or needs reconsideration.


I went through point by point and explained what was wrong with your suggestions 2 pages ago.
Edited by Mooclane on 11/19/2010 10:10 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12965
I see three arguments here.

1. "I miss frost tanking because I liked the flexibility of having multiple tanking trees."
2. "I miss frost tanking because it let me tank while dual-wielding."
3. "I miss frost tanking because I liked the theme of a frost tank."

I fall squarely into the last category. I really wish they could have had two viable tank specs, a frost one based on mitigation and a blood one based on selfhealing.


You forgot one:

4. "I miss Frost tanking because Howling Blast was OP for threat, but I'm going to pretend it's for another reason."

Responding to another poster: Frost supports both 2H and dual-wield DPS because Blizzard wanted to give DKs a pet-free 2H DPS option.
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85 Night Elf Druid
4880
/shrug
I have always considered dw tanking a gimmick on the level of 2h Enhance or Warlock tanks.

I wasnt playing WoW in Vanilla, which is when they where using 2handers to Windfury people to death, right? I recall that mechanic got removed because it entirely dependent on the RNG and when it procced it was game breaking. Since we're need to buff DW tanking up to the point where it can compete with 2H, I dont think anyones worried about that.
Also, I dont support warlock tanking (via Metamorphosis, I'm assuming). They are a ranged damage class and I agree that it would be horribly awful to balance. But DKs are a tank class with a tank spec. I understand that warriors, paladins, and druids dont have a choice when it comes to tanking, but thought the option was one of the things that made DKs fun and unique.

It lost most of it's DPS talents and gained all the other tank talents (except AMZ). That's not an overhaul, that's condensing. Blood needs choices. Actual choices. As aggravating as it will be to haul around 2 tank specs, the fact that Prot can have 2 distinct builds depending on what you're doing makes it fairly unique. Blood is just a bunch of talents you have to take.

Ok, if prot can have 2 slightly different specs why cant blood? Blizzard has said that most of the first 31 points that a player spends will be similar at least, to the first 31 points every other player of that spec spends. The choices in most cases really come down to the last 10 points, sometimes as many as 15 if you alter the core spec slightly.
DW and 2H tanks would most likely share 25+ points worth of talents, but there just arent enough spaces in the tree for 2 entirely seperate and distinct spec. If you want a complete overhaul of the tree, you can get to work on it, but I just want a single talent or 2 added to support DW tanking.

I post short succinct sentences so people understand what I'm saying and don't fall asleep before I get to the point.

first: sorry, this is the way I talk; I'll try and pair it down some.
second: the point, though, is that I DONT understand you

you only gain like 80 stam with a 2hander. You gain a paltry amount of dodge and parry which you'll probably reforge into mastery anyway. My point was the stat difference is probably insignificant.

Then if it doesnt REALLY make much difference without a boatload of talents attached, why are you opposed to it? If its fun for me, and doesnt make much difference to the healer, why can't we have it.


What does healing have to do with EH? Healing has nothing to do with EH. And Blizzard indicates a lot of things but last time I checked Heroic Raids were smacking tanks up fairly decently. More stamina is always useful (up to the point where your TTL becomes longer than the fight itself). Avoidance is both RNG, completely useless for Magic damage (which is generally what kills tanks) and is worse than mastery.

I meant self healing, and didnt you just say the difference was insignificant anyway? More stamina is useful, but does the loss of stamina from DW tanking make it noticeably harder to keep a tank alive in Cataclysm content?
Either the slight increase in Stamina and Parry (from additional strength) is significant, and I need to design some method (most likely through talents) or it ISNT significant, and then the only thing I need to worry about is threat.
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85 Night Elf Druid
4880
I went through point by point and explained what was wrong with your suggestions 2 pages ago.

I still think the forums need a private message/chat function, since out current method of conversation is like standing on 2 corners of busy intersection and shouting at each other through megaphones.

If we got a bit off topic with the EH and self-healing argument, sorry, that was mostly me responding to people who made comments like "DW is inferior in every way" but then didnt actually list anything, so I was just guessing at what they meant. I admit that before 4.0.1 DW blood tanking was inferior to 2h blood tanking, but I also stand by my statement that DW frost tanking was a viable option. After the last patch though, frost is no longer a tanking tree at all, so what I really want is a way to DW tank with Blood.

If the stat difference is insignifcant, as Mooclane suggests, then the biggest fault that I see with DW tanking in the Blood tree, is that it can't match 2h damage/threat from special attacks. I think if we swapped Blood-caked Blade (which no tank takes, right?) and Threat of Thassarian (its even got the word "threat" in it!) it would be a BIG step towards letting people DW tank. Again, this is not to detract from 2h-tanking, just to give those of us who care about it that option.
If there are MORE reasons that DW is a bad choice for tanking, once the threat-argument is addressed, please spell them out for me (preferably in list-form) because I am slow, and need help like that.
:)
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85 Night Elf Druid
4880
You forgot one:

4. "I miss Frost tanking because Howling Blast was OP for threat, but I'm going to pretend it's for another reason."

Blizz reduced AOE threat across the board, which was a good thing IMO.
I was never one of those tanks who relied soley on D&D anyhow, and I usually worked HB into my rotation when I could, so this doesnt affect me much.
(before anyone feels the need to say "lulz U sux at tanking" I want to point out that I never had issues holding threat, and HOW I go about doing that is my job, not yours)

Responding to another poster: Frost supports both 2H and dual-wield DPS because Blizzard wanted to give DKs a pet-free 2H DPS option.

Ok, see, I can understand that. I'm not entirely sure I would personally consider it a valid enough reason all on its own, but I can at least empathize with the sentiment (plus, I've seen more than one hunter asking fora pet-free spec).
Why then, are we being so accomadating to the wishes of DK DPS, while forcing tanks to all follow one model?
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85 Tauren Warrior
8120
I think if we swapped Blood-caked Blade (which no tank takes, right?) and Threat of Thassarian (its even got the word "threat" in it!) it would be a BIG step towards letting people DW tank. Again, this is not to detract from 2h-tanking, just to give those of us who care about it that option.


BCB is a 3rd tier talent, and thus you move it out of range Frost. Move it low enough that Frost can grab and so can Unholy.

Ok, if prot can have 2 slightly different specs why cant blood? Blizzard has said that most of the first 31 points that a player spends will be similar at least, to the first 31 points every other player of that spec spends. The choices in most cases really come down to the last 10 points, sometimes as many as 15 if you alter the core spec slightly.


For reference

dungeon/trash: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LhbZZcfGdRRobbu
raid boss: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LGZZIcGzRRozru

And I'd love for blood to be like Prot. The problem is the point difference in Prot is all threat type and utility. You're talking about a 7 point spread just to wield different weapons, which means you're giving up a lot for a purely aesthetic change, opening the door for QQ to prop it up even further. this is why I'm against dw tanking. Because it turns into a "If you give a mouse a cookie" deal.

Then if it doesnt REALLY make much difference without a boatload of talents attached, why are you opposed to it? If its fun for me, and doesnt make much difference to the healer, why can't we have it.].


Because you're giving up a ton of real tank talents which will make a difference to your healer.

I meant self healing, and didn't you just say the difference was insignificant anyway? More stamina is useful, but does the loss of stamina from DW tanking make it noticeably harder to keep a tank alive in Cataclysm content?
Either the slight increase in Stamina and Parry (from additional strength) is significant, and I need to design some method (most likely through talents) or it ISNT significant, and then the only thing I need to worry about is threat.


I said the difference of a gem was insignificant. Because that's how gearing works. A ton of very small advantages accruing together to be a big advantage. But that one gem is not significant on it's own. The difference in weapon choice will have a negligible impact. So again, it comes down to aesthetics. 7 point spread to wear different weapons is significant.

Blizz reduced AOE threat across the board, which was a good thing IMO.


Except on HB, which is now Frost's hardest hitting attack for a complete WTF moment to everyone not defending it's retardedness.

Why then, are we being so accomadating to the wishes of DK DPS, while forcing tanks to all follow one model?


because tanks are a smaller niche? Because tanks have to be much closer for boss mechanics to work properly? And we go back to stuff like "2h Enhance" where Blizzard has shown a willingness to completely shut people down. Of course, "He got that so why can't I have it" is one of the weakest positions to argue from, for anything.
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85 Night Elf Druid
4880
BCB is a 3rd tier talent, and thus you move it out of range Frost. Move it low enough that Frost can grab and so can Unholy.

but keep it in the blood tree? I have no objections to that, since it could be beneficial for a DW tank; or if you move it down to tier 1 or 2 in any tree I could still reach it.
I just suggested swapping it in order to not unbalance the talent trees.


dungeon/trash: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LhbZZcfGdRRobbu
raid boss: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LGZZIcGzRRozru

thanks, I'll compare these to my prot warriors build and see what I can use to benefit him.

And I'd love for blood to be like Prot.

I think a complete rebuild of the blood tanking tree is beyond my ability to concieve, but if you start your own thread on the subject I'll be happy to chime in with whatever advice or support I can offer.

The problem is the point difference in Prot is all threat type and utility. ....7 point spread ...giving up a lot for a purely aesthetic change, opening the door for QQ to prop it up even further.

yes, because removing DW tanking hasnt led to any QQ at all.....
And it doesnt HAVE to be giving anything up. if you choose to DW you choose different talents, which is why I was trying to design talents based around buffing the DK while DW, but NOT when using a 2H. If you want to rebuild the blood tree so badly anyway, then why not have 1 set of talents that offer buffs or benefit from 2handers, and another small set that offer buffs for and benefit from DWing.

Because you're giving up a ton of real tank talents which will make a difference to your healer.

This is my core blood spec: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jchG0sMrusd
It requires 32 talent points, leaving me with 9 more to spend (assuming level 85).
What damage mitigation or self healing talents can I not pick up if I spend 7 or 8 of those points letting myself DW?

...that's how gearing works. A ton of very small advantages accruing together to be a big advantage. The difference in weapon choice will have a negligible impact. So again, it comes down to aesthetics. 7 point spread to wear different weapons is significant.

If its weapons alone, then yes, you're right, it would be insignificant.
Thats why I was trying to design an alternate set of talents that benefited from DWing only. So that the extra points wheren't wasted, and any stat bonus you lost out on could be compensated for.

Except on HB, which is now Frost's hardest hitting attack for a complete WTF moment to everyone not defending it's retardedness.

wait...I'm confused.....
are you supporting or attacking HB? I figured that between D&D, Blood Boil, and Pestilence blood DKs have all the multi-target attacks they need.
If you want to take up the argument of having an AOE attack as the 31 point talent go talk to the shamans.

because tanks are a smaller niche? Because tanks have to be much closer for boss mechanics to work properly?

Tanks are a smaller group, but that means we need more of them; I would think that they would want to do everything they reasonably can to attract people to the tanking role.
Blizz just homogenized the tanking classes to a large extent (not as much as the healers though!) vastly simplifying the balancing job. I dont see anything I've suggested as being gamebreaking; it just adds a small amount of complexity.
I think another poster pointed out that Blizzard isnt trying to make every class absolutely identical; just get them within spitting distance of each other.
And if they can balance 2 similar warrior specs for different objectives, I think they can balance 2 similar DK specs for 1 objective.
And we go back to stuff like "2h Enhance" where Blizzard has shown a willingness to completely shut people down.

What?
Yes, Blizzard changes the game, and No, they dont listen to the QQ from the player base all the time, but their objective is still to sell us a game that is fun. If enough people support this idea, perhaps we can get them to spend a little time making it work.

Of course, "He got that so why can't I have it" is one of the weakest positions to argue from, for anything.

Blizzard is working hard to give players the ability to play any way they want; new race/class combos, removal of weapon-specific talents, differentiating DPS classes, etc. This is an area that I think could very easily make a lot of people very happy.; so I'm going to use every argument I can think of.
Blizzard hasnt yet made DW a frost-only skill, so that indicates to me at least a slim chance we might be able to convince them to spread that DWing goodness to other specs.
Edited by Drelnu on 11/20/2010 8:27 AM PST
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