Do you kick for Low DPS?

85 Human Death Knight
1790
Just curious. I've started a be nice policy. I ask the melees to stand behind their targets and if I know the class I suggest a priority. But I've had at least 8 instances where the dps is doing auto attack damage. As long as I'm not dying, I guess I don't care but sometimes it slows things down alot.

I had a weird one yesterday. I'm tanking Utgarde and we have an 80 mage doing 4.5k dps and a moonkin (not in form) doing 190 dps. The average for my level is about 1000-1500. The healer was pissed off because the xp hit. I decided not to kick them just for the challenge of holding agro with an 80 mage.

I've had a rogue and hunter doing autoattack damage. I've noticed that these folks even if ignored drop out more often than any other class. Watching TV?


The one thing though that gets my goat is when they are AFK or not there. I mean it is one thing to not be pushing the right buttons but when they are just on autofollow....

What are your thoughts?
Edited by Deathcraft on 11/19/2010 10:26 AM PST
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62 Troll Hunter
0
Pretty much same:
If they're trying, no.
If they're afk, yes.

Tanks doing 5-6k dps in heroics I don't care if the DPSers are bad, they just wanna play. But if someone is there but not playing, boot em
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85 Undead Warrior
7200
Yes.

If you're a fresh 80 with questing greens and blues, I expect you to be doing 1-1.5k DPS (because most are bad unlike my Ret Pally pulling 3k as I was hitting 78 or so). 800 DPS? I was pulling that pre-Ramps. GTFO my group.

If you're ICC-geared and I can recognize several Tier pieces, I expect you to be doing AT LEAST 3-3.5k. T10.5, You're doing at least 5-6k. If not, once again, GTFO my group.

If you want me to tank for you, you'd better at least have an idea of how to play your class. You get 80 levels to do learn.

Edit: I do recognize exceptions. Some bosses favor some classes more than others. Some group makeups are better than others. Some classes suck at trash/AoE pulls (Ret Paladins). But for the most part, live up to your gear.
Edited by Rakudjo on 11/19/2010 10:37 AM PST
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85 Tauren Paladin
6940
Pretty much same:
If they're trying, no.
If they're afk, yes.

Tanks doing 5-6k dps in heroics I don't care if the DPSers are bad, they just wanna play. But if someone is there but not playing, boot em

This. I don't keep the damage meters open tanking, so I wouldn't even notice unless someone brought it up which other dps usually do. At that point I like to give a polite reminder that effort is a requirement of staying in group. Since it's highly likely that the majority of the group out-gears the dungeon, it's not really a concern of mine if we carry bads as long as they are doing something.

In Cata that may be a different story.
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85 Draenei Warrior
0
Yes.
If you're a fresh 80 with questing greens and blues, I expect you to be doing 1-1.5k DPS (because most are bad unlike my Ret Pally pulling 3k as I was hitting 78 or so). 800 DPS? I was pulling that pre-Ramps. GTFO my group.

If you're ICC-geared and I can recognize several Tier pieces, I expect you to be doing AT LEAST 3-3.5k. T10.5, You're doing at least 5-6k. If not, once again, GTFO my group.

If you want me to tank for you, you'd better at least have an idea of how to play your class. You get 80 levels to do learn.
~~

You do realise that if one player is doing 5k dps, that no one else can right?
its not possible for more than 1 because the way dps meters count damage includes a baked in leadout time so that if the mobs die any faster, everyone's dps is suppressed.

if three people really do 5k damage each (15-20k dps for the group) the mobs are dieing in 3-5 seconds, which means the recorded dps ends before the fight can actually end, with a average 2 second leadout, that 5k dps is reduced to 3000-3570 per person.

a fight has to last about 1 full minute to get a meaningful DPS result.

Base it on damage done.
If i have 3 DPS classes, and the tank is not doing sick damage (ie pulling 5k dps) then there should be at least 80% of the mobs health to share with the 3 dps, so each one should be equal or slightly above the tanks in damage delt.

If i see some jackass that is slacking the entire dungeon, Blows all his cooldowns for the boss, then links a DPS meter to show how great he is, i put his stupid ass on ignore.

I dont need you for 60 seconds of damage. i needed you to turn 18 minutes of trash clearing into 14 minutes. nothing in here was any risk. the boss fights are not a threat to survivability, so your burst dps is the most meaningless number you can post.

I will kick a dps for being less than 50% of the damage done average. the tank and 3 dps should be about 25% each. if gear is equal, and a DPS class is less than 10% damage delt, good by. i dont need you AFKing in my dungeon.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
7430
Why should I kick unless they are being a douche? I don't need them. The only thing I need, sometimes, is a healer.

In a raid though, yes. In a raid, pull your weight.
Edited by Kalle on 11/19/2010 11:04 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
5555
Why should I kick unless they are being a douche? I don't need them. The only thing I need, sometimes, is a healer.

The only time other than this that I would kick is if they either aren't doing anything or simply auto attacking and nothing else. I don't really want to carry someone who is obviously leeching. Fortunately, that's really rare (in my experience).

I suppose that's really about attitude, though. Someone with low dps might be newer or undergeared or something. Someone who's clearly not doing anything is showing great disrespect and disregard for everyone else in the group.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19110
I try not to kick people when I'm tanking. Mostly because I can do 4-5k dps chain pulling, and if they're in there for points they probably *need* gear. I very rarely solo queue anymore, so I don't even look at recount unless there's someone beating my guildy/friend.

Like it's been mentioned above, if they have a bad attitude or are rude or AFK somewhere in the back then yeah.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6580
If I'm in a heroic tanking, I expect all players to do at least 1500 DPS. If the DPS'ers can hit that, I generally don't kick. If they're in t-10 though, I first ask them to pick it up. If that doesn't work, then I kick.
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90 Draenei Warrior
10620
I won't kick in a pug unless someone is being an ass or if someone is AFK. If someone is just playing poorly I'll turn to my healer and say "Aww look, isn't it cute?" and she'll say "Aww, it's trying"

I don't care if you do half my damage, and I won't even call you out on it. However, if you are a disruptive douchenozzle, I'll destroy you.
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100 Human Paladin
15565
the only time i kick for low dps is if they are just afk'ing to JP.

Someone in heirlooms pulling sub-1k? Fine by me.

Someone trying a new spec and getting crushed on the meter by the healer? Don't care.




That mage i had in an OK run a couple days ago that cast 1 pyroblast every 3 pulls, had the healer on autofollow and tried to say they were doing something while doing 1.8% of the group's damage? The one that when i asked them to actually DO anything they said "and what do you want me to do? Now stfu and pull"?

Yea, i kicked that guy. Right before a boss fight and 2 bosses from the end. Replacement dps we got in 0.5 seconds got a free ride to some really fast jp.
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I don't kick players because of low dps as I usually more than make up for their lack of output. With that said, if I get Heroic Halls of Reflection and the DPS is overall very low and there is one player who stands out as the lowest (had a Rogue pulling 1.1k, Hunter at 2.4, Shaman at 2.8), I'll likely let them know that they aren't ready for this Heroic and ask them to leave, or Vote to Kick.
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100 Human Paladin
15905
I've never initiated a vote kick based on gameplay, while I'm the tank. I have several times votekicked someone who ran their mouth at me, or at someone else in the group


Same.

I was tanking gnomer on my newest baby duid the other day and on the final hall run, with the dark iron dwarves, someone initiates a votekick on the hunter in the group, who was wearing all green and white items (no BoAs), and from my observation had probably never been there before at all. The reason given? "Useless c***"

I voted "no", stopped pulliing and said "You know, that word is pretty offensive to women". The healer said "what word?" and one of the other dps said "I didn't even read the message, I got to "useless" and voted "no". "Same here" said the healer. So I knew then which guy initiated the kick, and initiated a kick on him. MY kick passed.
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Now that more people are gearing alts and trying FotM classes, there will be alot of under-geared dps who perform poorly.

The trend I see in randoms is almost night/day. I either get 3 scrub DPS who barely pull 2K and I end up doing 40% of the overall damage, or I get 3 uber geared DPS who are so hot on the trigger that I can't possibly keep up. The scrubs are much less of a headache.

Still, I understand where the OP is coming from. About 2 weeks ago I queued as DPS and popped in with an undergeared tank. During the first pull, one of the other DPS pulled aggro off him, then immediately initiated a kick vote. The other DPS voted for it, and the tank was gone.

That infuriated me because, as a tank, I've carried countless under-geared DPS through heroics without kicking them (though I do make fun of them sometimes).

There is a double standard for tanks, and that is a result of common attitudes in the player community. Players generally expect higher standards from tanks than DPS or healers in terms of gear and performance.

We would be justified in trying to hold them to similar standards. But at the moment I don't feel we have the tools. Perhaps if Blizz allowed the Tank or Dungeon Guide to kick people without a vote, then it would be possible to enforce these standards.

The OP's generosity in trying to help these people perform better is entirely wasted. In the random dungeon finder, you will likely never group with that player again, so there is zero return on your investment.

Bottom line, until Blizz actually empowers the tank/guide to these ends, you really only have two choices; leave group or keep pulling.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
3670
No, the dungeon is complete within 8-10 minutes and you can't kick before the 15 minute mark.

On this and my other healers, I sure as hell will let someone die if their dps is just inexplicably terrible.
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I will always miss signatures. I wish there was something we could do about it.
Catering, to the masses.
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80 Blood Elf Death Knight
2515
I remember getting kicked from my Pit of Saron run because everyone mounted up after Ick and bypassed the mob spawn, but I didn't know what we were doing and died trying to follow. I got %%*!!ed at and kicked, and I was the tank. I've done that place several times now and I never skip that group, it provides a good challenge.
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83 Human Warrior
7675
only afkers
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