Parry and Dodge cap?

86 Blood Elf Paladin
5490
What is the Parry/Dodge cap for a Prot Pally?
I assume there must be one or else it would be theoretically possible to stack enough to become unhittable.
Reply Quote
85 Human Death Knight
10380
The dodge and parry caps, combined, are well over 100%. Thing is, you can't actually reach the caps no matter how much dodge/parry rating you stack, even if you could theoretically stack any arbitrary amount. Dodge and parry rating have diminishing returns, which means that as you approach the cap, the avoidance you get per point of rating is reduced such that you can never actually reach the cap.

You still wouldn't be able to reach the cap even without diminishing returns, because you just don't have that many sockets or non-avoidance stats to reforge. The cap is really only relevant because it's used in calculating diminishing returns.

These numbers are out of date (I believe dodge and parry now have the same cap), but it should give you the basic idea.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Melee_diminishing_returns
Reply Quote
86 Blood Elf Paladin
5490
Thank you for the replies.
Apparently I was mistaken about what a "cap" actually is. I thought that the cap was the point at which diminishing returns makes it so that it is no longer worthwhile to gem for that stat, not the point at which you can't actually get any more.

So then I guess I should change my question to: At what point is it no longer worthwhile to gem/reforge dodge and parry?
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
7495
Cap means no more benefit. This is why you'll see some of the older tanks scream bloody murder, burst into flames and murder bambina's mother in front of herself for weeks on end at the mere mention of the "def cap". Def, even after you reached the crit immunity level, still provided dodge, parry and block rating, armour too if I recall.

Also, unhitable actually refers to being unable to be hit by a full, unmitigated in anyway, hit. Paladins used to be able to do this via dodge, parry and block with holy shield, so worst case scenario, we took a lessened hit. This is important to know, as you'll see in a moment.

Now, as to the doge/parry caps, from what I've read the game is hard coded to stop counting past 99%, so you always have a 1% chance to be wailed on, assuming equal level mobs. This was back in bc, so the dr may of changed this - at any rate, you'll never reach this level, especially not with dr.

So, after 25% when dodge and parry take dr, as a rule of thumb, reforge the excess into mastery, then threat stats. Now, the thing with the mastery is(currently) it doesn't have any effect but act like block rating did, and increase the chance to block. This also has a cap. Add up dodge, parry, and block in the defense section of the stats window. When it exceeds 102.8%(or whatever unhitable is in cata), none of those stats will provide any benifit.

Now, here you have a few options - if you have excess mastery, you could reforge some dodge/parry into something like hit/expertise, and let the excess block chances fill the void. You can reforge the mastery *into* dodge/parry, while mainting unhitable, thusly shifting mitigation into full avoidance, or reforge everything into spirit and queue as dps. I don't advise the last one.

tl;dr: hit up maintankadin and look for the term unhitable. That should point you to caps and whatever if you don't want to figure it all out yourself.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Priest
8730
Def, even after you reached the crit immunity level, still provided dodge, parry and block rating, armour too if I recall.


Not that it matters anymore but def gave more dodge, parry, block chance, and miss chance even after crit immune, not armor.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
12965
EJ has updated combat rating info, including the DR scales and hard caps for avoidance.

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

Cap means no more benefit. This is why you'll see some of the older tanks scream bloody murder, burst into flames and murder bambina's mother in front of herself for weeks on end at the mere mention of the "def cap". Def, even after you reached the crit immunity level, still provided dodge, parry and block rating, armour too if I recall.


Defense never provided armor.

Also, unhitable actually refers to being unable to be hit by a full, unmitigated in anyway, hit. Paladins used to be able to do this via dodge, parry and block with holy shield, so worst case scenario, we took a lessened hit. This is important to know, as you'll see in a moment.


The term many tanks (including myself) prefer is "block capped". Saying "unhittable" gives many players the false impression that you're avoiding every hit.

Now, as to the doge/parry caps, from what I've read the game is hard coded to stop counting past 99%, so you always have a 1% chance to be wailed on, assuming equal level mobs.


Incorrect.

So, after 25% when dodge and parry take dr, as a rule of thumb, reforge the excess into mastery, then threat stats.


I've seen this suggested for Warriors, but for Paladins it's best to reforge as much dodge/parry into mastery as possible, as soon as possible.

Now, the thing with the mastery is(currently) it doesn't have any effect but act like block rating did, and increase the chance to block. This also has a cap. Add up dodge, parry, and block in the defense section of the stats window. When it exceeds 102.8%(or whatever unhitable is in cata), none of those stats will provide any benifit.


Again, incorrect. Block cap is 102.4% combined miss/dodge/parry/block, but even above block cap avoidance still has value - only block rating (mastery) becomes useless.
Reply Quote
86 Blood Elf Paladin
5490
I actually found that page you linked when I was googling around, Alandrek.
I've looked at it a bit, and I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but Dodge and Parry cap are both 65% at lvl 85? But DR would make it impossible to reach that anyways?

Even with that page, I can't seem to figure out how to calculate at which point DR starts to affect my dodge/parry and when I should stop gemming/reforging those and switch to something else (at lvl 80 and 85).

EDIT: If I calculated it right, my current Dodge (23.71%) with DR comes out to 19.35%.
I'm already losing 4% of my dodge rating.
Edited by Faerun on 11/19/2010 7:18 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
3090
Currently, you want Parry and Dodge at 21.4% and 21.6% respectively. This will give you the most bang before diminishing returns. Afterwards, you will want to reforge any excess parry/dodge and other secondary stats into Mastery until you reach a combined avoidance of ~ 87%. That, with the 15% block bonus included with Holy Shield will push you over the 102.4 percent "Block Cap" with the addition of raid buffs. http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=29787&rb_v=viewtopic

However, patch 4.0.3a will be changing the way Holy Shield works to give us a 10% increase to blocked damage (raising us to 40% of damage blocked), making it very nearly impossible to ever again achieve the block cap. It appears Blizzard has decided to end the quest for block cap,

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/11/10/the-light-and-how-to-swing-it-no-more-avoidance-caps/
Reply Quote
86 Blood Elf Paladin
5490
Thank you very much Daelkyr, this was exactly the answer I was looking for!

One question though: Do you mean 21.4% and 21.6% after I calculate it with DR, or what it says in the Character Panel?
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
3090
21.4%and 21.6% in the character panel. Which means you'll need roughly 931 parry and dodge rating to achieve the DR percentages shown in the character panel. All of it is explained in much better detail on Maintankadin. (In fact, all my stat quotes come from their awesome site.) Hope that helps.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
the cap listed in the EJ spreadsheet is not a cap, its the point where DR had made dodge and parry cost twice as much for the same result.
after that point they get exponentially more expensive, so that even with 100,000 dodge rating, you will not reach 100% post DR dodge.

within the confines of the game, dodge and parry softcap at the point where mastery provides more average damage reduction over time.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
13215
The numbers Daelkyr posted are outdated!

I appreciate the post, but the math he's pulling from is outdated given the changes to Mastery rating and Holy Shield in 4.03a. At this point, balancing around overall damage taken will simply mean taking avoidance over mastery. Mastery means less spikes. Additionally, the block cap is less reasonable, while mastery remains only somewhat less attractive than it was. Block cap will be a concern for later tiers of raiding, but probably not for progression entry Cata raids.

Still, aiming for around that area of avoidance (~20-23%) is a good balance. Don't worry about it too much - the differences between avoidance and mastery stats are subtle enough that the real concern is balancing gearing for threat, EH, and mitigation.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
There isn't really a consistent terminology, unfortunately.

Normally, "cap" means the point at which you no longer gain any benefit from that stat beyond a particular point. For example, the avoidance cap by definition is 100% - once you have a 100% chance to avoid a hit, you gain zero benefit from extra avoidance.

However, there are also very convenient "break points" at which it is unwise to continue stacking a particular stat, even if there is still technically benefit from doing so. The prime example here is the old "defense cap", which was the point at which you could no longer be critically hit. We generally refer to points that you gain no benefit from a stat the "hard cap" and the point when it becomes disadvantageous to stack the stat the "soft cap." When we talk about caps with no adjective, we generally mean the soft cap.

Taking the defense example from before. Defense had a soft cap at level 80 versus a raid boss of 540, but had no hard cap - you could stack it until the cows came home, but it wouldn't net you much.

When you see a paladin refer to the dodge and parry caps post-4.0, they are talking about the point at which it becomes better to reforge avoidance into mastery. I don't know the exact values, but it's about 22% or so of each stat.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
Even with that page, I can't seem to figure out how to calculate at which point DR starts to affect my dodge/parry and when I should stop gemming/reforging those and switch to something else (at lvl 80 and 85).


Diminishing returns always affects your dodge and parry. It just gets more severe the more you already have. So going from 0 to 200 parry rating might give you 1% parry, but going from 400 to 600 will only give you 0.8% and going from 1800 to 2000 might only give you .4%. These numbers aren't accurate in any way, just a qualitative demonstration of how the diminishing returns work.

As far as your second question, I believe someone else already answered but mastery is pretty much always what you want as a paladin.

the cap listed in the EJ spreadsheet is not a cap, its the point where DR had made dodge and parry cost twice as much for the same result.


Irrelevant math fact: while you are right that the cap is where dodge and parry give half their benefit after diminishing returns, it's also where you will end up if you get infinity dodge/parry rating (or a million, or whatever). That's where the "cap" terminology comes from.
Edited by Anothriel on 11/19/2010 11:59 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]