Reasonable Mage nerfs and dispel changes.

85 Undead Mage
4650
The problem to me isn't with mage damage from individual spells from the look of beta videos. it is how many ice lances can be done.

individual ice lance/frostbolt damage isn't crazy. it becomes a problem because of the amount they can chain instant casts. 1 or 2 ice lances aren't crazy, but when you have things like an on demand root through imp cone of cold and improved (pet) freeze, you see ice lance rushdown. Ice lance crits for 12k by a mage in pvp gear, on a person in pvp gear. spellpower procs/spell power debuffs do add to this damage that can make them crit for 13k to 18k in pvp gear. once again the individual damage isn't overpowered. it is how many can be chained with nova, imp CoC, pet freeze for FoF procs, and possibly FoF from ice armor. the frost tree CAN create an ice lance zerg down playstyle, but outside of that, the playstyle is fine.


the things that should be looked at for nerfs that would make sense and change the situational ice lance zerg down.

changing imp cone of cold. instead of rooting, maybe it should grant the mage 5 percent haste for 5-8 seconds. keep in mind CoC won't always be used depending on positioning so there won't be a constant 5 percent haste uptime.
changing imp freeze. i don't know how this would be changed because pet freeze became usable in the frost pve rotation, but it should be looked at.
taking ring of frost off of coldsnap.
looking at mage armor. (maybe just a flat magical damage reduction like what spriest have and 15 percent magical CC reduction)
changing the way FoF procs off of ice armor. i think it should still proc from being trained, but maybe some sort of internal CD for FoF procs specifically from ice armor and not frostbolt.

i know people say frost control needs to be nerfed. if imp CoC root is taken away and ring of frost was taken off of cold snap, then that would be enough. The loss of winters chill is enough to make up for the rest.

purge and priest dispel could possibly be limited to one instead of 2.

mage spell steal have a 5 second CD or whatever the CD the felhunter pet has. i think it's 7 or 8 seconds.

What I don't agree with on these forums or AJ forums are the claims of mages are overpowered at 80 and the same amount of overpowered at 85. this is simply not true. at 80 mages are obviously overpowered, but they arent as overpowered at 85. people don't go from full to 20 in a deepfreeze, it is more like 40-50 in pvp gear which happens every 30 seconds.

people base a lot of what they think about cataclysm off of 80 pvp. people are complaining about feral druids killing people in pounce and frost mages killing people in 4 ice lances. ive even seen exaggerated numbers of 20k ice lances on 1500 resil which is mathematically impossible, mine usually crit for 6k to 7k on high resilience on live.

people need to know that some specs are really overpowered on 80 because iLvLs became high in WotLK, so people can have a lot of crit and mastery.

for example i have 16 percent haste, 15 percent mastery,and 20.5 percent crit chance from gear and talents(61.5 percent on frozen targets). This isn't possible at 80. mages will have 2-5 percent haste, 20 percent crit, and no stats geared/gem toward mastery because crit should be geared/gemmed for first. this stat imbalance is the same for feral druids.

people always post the video of the mage playing shatterplay without putting any context on the damage. they are facing a Warrior/Mage/Druid that stands in the open a lot. The mage jamageqt and shadow priest mouzi are constantly swapping and taking advantage of the opposite team's positioning which allows for swapping damage pretty easily. This has more to do with positioning and the fact that resto druids can only lifebloom one target now, so they are the weakest healer to damage swaps.
Edited by Plurals on 11/19/2010 11:41 AM PST
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85 Undead Mage
5995
changing imp cone of cold. instead of rooting, maybe it should grant the mage 5 percent haste for 5-8 seconds. keep in mind CoC won't always be used depending on positioning so there won't be a constant 5 percent haste uptime.


Seriously, how do you get haste for the spell caster from improved cone of cold?

I get it, you want to nerf Frost, whatever. But the mechanics that they came up with for frost was control via slow and roots and increased damage on the roots.

What it comes down to is that the mechanics for Frost do not support the caster getting a haste boost from casting the spell.
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When you talent Imp pet freeze pet freeze should lose the root and the damage should be increased.

Imp CoC shouldn't root instead it should grant haste like you said

Deep freeze needs to be a shorter stun, enough for a frostbolt+icelance maybe an extra lance with enough haste.

Edited by Hakue on 11/19/2010 11:48 AM PST
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85 Undead Mage
4650
changing imp cone of cold. instead of rooting, maybe it should grant the mage 5 percent haste for 5-8 seconds. keep in mind CoC won't always be used depending on positioning so there won't be a constant 5 percent haste uptime.


Seriously, how do you get haste for the spell caster from improved cone of cold?

I get it, you want to nerf Frost, whatever. But the mechanics that they came up with for frost was control via slow and roots and increased damage on the roots.

What it comes down to is that the mechanics for Frost do not support the caster getting a haste boost from casting the spell.


well the point of the imp CoC change was to reduce the ice lance zerg down playstyle. you feel like the haste aspect doesn't go well with the control design of frost. does that mean icy veins should be taken out of the frost tree since that doesn't fit the flavor of the tree?
the point of the change was to not remove pvp utility, but change it (faster frostbolts or poly, instead of the ice lance option)

some people say this is needed for frost pve leveling because frostbite is gone. I don't think leveling will be too hard since the pet is always around and you can just pet freeze/nova stuff off of you.
Edited by Plurals on 11/19/2010 12:01 PM PST
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85 Undead Mage
4650
deep freeze doesn't need to be shorter than it is. it is a 5 second stun on global, so after you deep freeze someone you only have enough time to frostbolt+ice lance (another ice lance if you have enough haste, which mages won't have for a while).
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3 Blood Elf Mage
0
Nerfing CoC and pet freeze would negatively affect frost pve, which they've spent a ton of time working on.

Imp CoC seems like it was given to us to replace frostbite. The biggest complaint with FB was it was too skilless and RNG'y, now it's not. I think it's a good trade off personally.
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Explain to me how pet freeze not having a root when imp pet freeze is talented to give FoF charges would hurt frost PvE, you would still get FoF charges when it did damage.
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35 Troll Priest
320
Once more for the people in the cheap seats: X.00 and X.01 patches always lead to choppy PvP because you have the new talents, spells and coefficients, but not the new gear. PvP right now means nothing. You should feel glad that the developers specifically mentioned including "tuning knobs" to simplify correcting imbalance.
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85 Undead Mage
3075
Hate to say it... but you people brought this on yourselves by refusing to support mages in the revolution to remove spell pushback.

When pushback was deemed "it's fine L2P" the revolution for more freezes to use Lance began, because casting anything became PvP suicide.

That brings us today, the day I refuse to spec faceroll frost in the expansion (or at least until Fire proves so un-viable that I spec frost and hope everyone forgets I posted this).
Edited by Qbert on 11/19/2010 12:34 PM PST
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85 Undead Mage
4650
Explain to me how pet freeze not having a root when imp pet freeze is talented to give FoF charges would hurt frost PvE, you would still get FoF charges when it did damage.


you misread that. i was talking about imp cone of cold. i said having pet freeze with a permanent pet is more than enough to make up for the loss of frostbite or imp cone of cold.
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3 Blood Elf Mage
0
Guess I didn't misread.
Edited by Boomslang on 11/19/2010 12:36 PM PST
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85 Undead Mage
4650
this CoC change doesnt hurt pve too much. with water elemental available at level 10, frostbite or frostbites replacement (unchanged CoC) aren't needed. the only complaints would be from solo leveling and nova and pet freeze are good enough.

im not saying nerf pet freeze. i am saying the mechanic of pet freeze gaining 2 FoF charges from imp freeze needs to be thought out again. while it is nice that it makes pve more interesting, it make pvp less interesting.

these types of utility changes are better to do than the alternative of nerfing ice lance and buffing frostbolt which is isnt interesting or the cause of the problem.
Edited by Plurals on 11/19/2010 12:41 PM PST
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85 Undead Mage
4650
Nerfing CoC and pet freeze would negatively affect frost pve, which they've spent a ton of time working on.

Imp CoC seems like it was given to us to replace frostbite. The biggest complaint with FB was it was too skilless and RNG'y, now it's not. I think it's a good trade off personally.


creates an ice lance zerg playstyle. nova- ice lance- imp CoC- ice lance- pet freeze melee ice lance+ DF ice lance ice lance.

imp CoC changed to grant haste would provide a more dynamic playstyle than the current imp CoC.
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85 Gnome Mage
10055
Maybe they should look at DR for freezes instead.

Like make all freezes on dr, but add some sort of dispel protection so dispels don't cripple frost mages more than they already do.

I'm terrible at pvp. So someone more experienced, please feel free to expand upon or shut down my suggestion.
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90 Troll Mage
14090
changing imp cone of cold. instead of rooting, maybe it should grant the mage 5 percent haste for 5-8 seconds. keep in mind CoC won't always be used depending on positioning so there won't be a constant 5 percent haste uptime.


Seriously, how do you get haste for the spell caster from improved cone of cold?

I get it, you want to nerf Frost, whatever. But the mechanics that they came up with for frost was control via slow and roots and increased damage on the roots.

What it comes down to is that the mechanics for Frost do not support the caster getting a haste boost from casting the spell.


well the point of the imp CoC change was to reduce the ice lance zerg down playstyle. you feel like the haste aspect doesn't go well with the control design of frost. does that mean icy veins should be taken out of the frost tree since that doesn't fit the flavor of the tree?
the point of the change was to not remove pvp utility, but change it (faster frostbolts or poly, instead of the ice lance option)


The difference is that Icy Veins is a self-buff that grants pushback protection and increases spell haste by 20% for 20 seconds, and is off the global cooldown. It can help assist with burst. Cone of Cold is a, well, cone-targeted attack that has a 12-yard range and is on the global cooldown, meaning up to 1.5 seconds of your suggested 5-8 second buff is lost. Not to mention 5% haste is only like -0.12 seconds off of a Frostbolt or a 0.08 second GCD reduction for instants. Given the circumstances you'd have to proc it, I can't imagine why anybody would take that talent. :/
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85 Undead Mage
4650
Maybe they should look at DR for freezes instead.

Like make all freezes on dr, but add some sort of dispel protection so dispels don't cripple frost mages more than they already do.

I'm terrible at pvp. So someone more experienced, please feel free to expand upon or shut down my suggestion.


DR to all freezes would be incredibly boring. pet freeze and nova already share DR. i believe imp CoC and shattered barrier share DR as well.

keeping pet nova and nova on the same DR and shattered barrier on a seperate one is the best option. taking imp CoC and making it grant haste makes frost more exciting than another freeze. that way while you are kiting and do a CoC then either nova or have shatter barrier break, you can have a faster sheep or a faster shatter.
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85 Undead Mage
4650
changing imp cone of cold. instead of rooting, maybe it should grant the mage 5 percent haste for 5-8 seconds. keep in mind CoC won't always be used depending on positioning so there won't be a constant 5 percent haste uptime.


Seriously, how do you get haste for the spell caster from improved cone of cold?

I get it, you want to nerf Frost, whatever. But the mechanics that they came up with for frost was control via slow and roots and increased damage on the roots.

What it comes down to is that the mechanics for Frost do not support the caster getting a haste boost from casting the spell.


well the point of the imp CoC change was to reduce the ice lance zerg down playstyle. you feel like the haste aspect doesn't go well with the control design of frost. does that mean icy veins should be taken out of the frost tree since that doesn't fit the flavor of the tree?
the point of the change was to not remove pvp utility, but change it (faster frostbolts or poly, instead of the ice lance option)


The difference is that Icy Veins is a self-buff that grants pushback protection and increases spell haste by 20% for 20 seconds, and is off the global cooldown. It can help assist with burst. Cone of Cold is a, well, cone-targeted attack that has a 12-yard range and is on the global cooldown, meaning up to 1.5 seconds of your suggested 5-8 second buff is lost. Not to mention 5% haste is only like -0.12 seconds off of a Frostbolt or a 0.08 second GCD reduction for instants. Given the circumstances you'd have to proc it, I can't imagine why anybody would take that talent. :/


it doesn't have to be 5 percent for 8 seconds. i was just throwing numbers out. the point of taking it would be to be able to get a faster sheep/shatters when you follow up with a nova or shattered barrier gets broken
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3 Blood Elf Mage
0
creates an ice lance zerg playstyle. nova- ice lance- imp CoC- ice lance- pet freeze melee ice lance+ DF ice lance ice lance.


To me this seems like more of a side effect of them trying to make ice lance viable in pve and less to do with imp CoC specifically. Again, it feels like imp CoC is replacing frostbite which i'm sure you'll admit is an overall nerf to the number of roots we'll be able to get over the course of a match.

imp CoC changed to grant haste would provide a more dynamic playstyle than the current imp CoC.


I don't see how a haste buff provides a more dynamic playstyle. Most of frosts playstyle is centered on freezing people and that's what imp CoC does.
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- World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Re the question about how losing the pet freeze would hurt PvE: one of our major complaints about Frost PvE in Wrath (besides the obvious performance problems) was that it had all the flavor sucked out of it - the pet lost its freeze, frostbolt lost its snare, and the spec effectively lost its theme when specced and glyphed for PvE. This is a point we hammered home pretty hard in feedback about a year ago. They're trying hard to improve that situation. Fire, as an example, doesn't have to give up its mobility, AOE and cleave damage when speccing and glyphing for PvE, and they're doing their bewt to ensure that Frost also keeps its flavor. It may not be very often that it would be useful to drop a ranged Freeze on a raid mob, but when it would, a Frost Mage should be able to do it - that's what he does.
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85 Undead Mage
4650
the only thing frost pvp and frost pve share in common is frostbolting for FoFs and FFBs, and pet freeze. look at the other stuff for nerfs.
Edited by Plurals on 11/19/2010 5:13 PM PST
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