Any official word out there on meta changes?

90 Dwarf Hunter
14760
It's not a bug. I can't imagine how a meta change that major could have happened accidentally. It's possible that they might change their minds still but I wouldn't hold my breath.


Mastery is particularly atrocious for unholy DKs. Essentially the worst stat we can have for DPS, aside from agility. Crit is also pretty bad.

My point is, the crit gems are going to be worthless and the gems that we do get to use are going to be boring and a step down from what we're used to at best.


Well if you want to run around with no meta because the concept of using one with crit or mastery makes you ill to look at, be my guest. I suspect most players will just math it out and use whichever one gives them the best damage.

I agree that the meta change is a bit overkill and I'd like to see the requirements reduced to something more reasonable, but I see no reason to overstate the case and make it sound like the other metas don't even exist or would not give any dps at all.
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100 Human Death Knight
11140
It's not a bug. I can't imagine how a meta change that major could have happened accidentally. It's possible that they might change their minds still but I wouldn't hold my breath.


Mastery is particularly atrocious for unholy DKs. Essentially the worst stat we can have for DPS, aside from agility. Crit is also pretty bad.

My point is, the crit gems are going to be worthless and the gems that we do get to use are going to be boring and a step down from what we're used to at best.


Well if you want to run around with no meta because the concept of using one with crit or mastery makes you ill to look at, be my guest. I suspect most players will just math it out and use whichever one gives them the best damage.

I agree that the meta change is a bit overkill and I'd like to see the requirements reduced to something more reasonable, but I see no reason to overstate the case and make it sound like the other metas don't even exist or would not give any dps at all.


I didn't say I would be running around with no meta. What I AM saying is that it is feasible that with these changes, the net gains from the meta would be zero. Now, that was before I saw the meta that gives Crit rating and some crappy secondary effect with 2 reds as the requirement. Even so, a 54 crit meta is pretty lackluster when you consider how good the caster ones are.

Please don't misstate my argument or turn it into a strawman. Thanks.
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100 Human Death Knight
11140
Does it really matter... you are going to have like 1 raid lockout between 4.0.3a and when you start leveling.


Yes, because it's not like the requirements are magically going to change at 85.
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85 Worgen Hunter
10665
Like i said before it doesn't matter. Someone will theorycraft whether its better to lose all the pure gems for a little bit of crit/crit dmg.. If it isnt. Then min/maxers just flat out won't use them.
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100 Tauren Shaman
11960
I would say that a lot of us physical DPS are wondering what is going on with the Relentless and Chaotic meta gems on the PTR and beta. Are they really intended to be more blue than red which makes them a DPS loss to use?

Sounds like they're trying to force us to use gems for Hit.

Not going to be a problem for Enhance Shaman, considering how much we're supposed to get for the first tier of raiding. =.=
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100 Human Death Knight
11140
Like i said before it doesn't matter. Someone will theorycraft whether its better to lose all the pure gems for a little bit of crit/crit dmg.. If it isnt. Then min/maxers just flat out won't use them.


I'm sure they will, but I thought the whole point of removing stats like ArP and mp5 and defense was that the mechanics were too mathy and obscure. I just think there should be an easier process to selecting a meta.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14760

I didn't say I would be running around with no meta. What I AM saying is that it is feasible that with these changes, the net gains from the meta would be zero. Now, that was before I saw the meta that gives Crit rating and some crappy secondary effect with 2 reds as the requirement. Even so, a 54 crit meta is pretty lackluster when you consider how good the caster ones are.

Please don't misstate my argument or turn it into a strawman. Thanks.


Your argument was sounding very much like a strawman actually. I assumed you were actually aware of what metas existed when you made a reference as to whether it'd even be worth using one. The caster ones are clearly better, I agree wholeheartedly and it should be fixed. But 54 crit or mastery is still useful, even if it's far inferior to the caster option.

The mastery/runspeed one is also kind of attractive (assuming mastery is decent) if you normally go with the runspeed to boots, since it opens up your boot enchant options some more. Of course that depends on if you can stand to have 2 orange gems in your gear but a lot of the socket bonuses are fairly considerable so I expect it won't be too big a sacrifce.
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100 Human Death Knight
11140

I didn't say I would be running around with no meta. What I AM saying is that it is feasible that with these changes, the net gains from the meta would be zero. Now, that was before I saw the meta that gives Crit rating and some crappy secondary effect with 2 reds as the requirement. Even so, a 54 crit meta is pretty lackluster when you consider how good the caster ones are.

Please don't misstate my argument or turn it into a strawman. Thanks.


Your argument was sounding very much like a strawman actually. I assumed you were actually aware of what metas existed when you made a reference as to whether it'd even be worth using one. The caster ones are clearly better, I agree wholeheartedly and it should be fixed. But 54 crit or mastery is still useful, even if it's far inferior to the caster option.

The mastery/runspeed one is also kind of attractive (assuming mastery is decent) if you normally go with the runspeed to boots, since it opens up your boot enchant options some more. Of course that depends on if you can stand to have 2 orange gems in your gear but a lot of the socket bonuses are fairly considerable so I expect it won't be too big a sacrifce.


Mastery for Unholy DKs is very very very bad and we DPS in unholy presence which has 15% run speed baked in.

Also, once the Cata epic gems come out (likely in the 2nd tier of raiding), the crit meta, since the secondary effect is garbage for PvE, might actually be less useful than a pure crit yellow gem (not that you could put a yellow gem in a meta socket), which is kind of lame imo.
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85 Draenei Shaman
8895
Well there's never going to be a really good reason to use a meta and not activate it or to not use any meta at all. The question is going to be which meta to use.



There is a good reason if all of the metas have requirements such that it is a DPS loss to gem to meet them.


at this point in time UH death knights will be going out of their way to find helms with no meta slot.

This change is stupid, it forces anyone who isn't struggling for hit to use stupid PvP based metas.

so lets see for an ele shaman, I can take int/mana, woohoo as if my mana bar ever moved, or mastery/runspeed, ohwait I get 15% runspeed + insta GW indoors at lvl 85. So in essence if you aren't overflowing with hit gems you have to waste the second half of your meta.

only class I could see not noticing this as much are fury warriors due to their astronomical hit requirements which will have them gemming almost totally in str/hit gems.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14760

Mastery for Unholy DKs is very very very bad and we DPS in unholy presence which has 15% run speed baked in.

Also, once the Cata epic gems come out (likely in the 2nd tier of raiding), the crit meta, since the secondary effect is garbage for PvE, might actually be less useful than a pure crit yellow gem (not that you could put a yellow gem in a meta socket), which is kind of lame imo.


Well you've already made it clear you find those stats not useful to DKs. I was speaking more generally. I'm assuming there are some classes for whom mastery is not totally useless and who don't get free runspeed as part of their basic spec implementation or talents. I'm considering using it myself, although as a hunter the runspeed is less critical, it's still nice to have. I don't expect all socket bonuses will be worth picking up, but a lot of them are pretty nice so I expect there may be a few orange gems in my gear.

I'm not sure if we'll see epic gems till the third tier of raiding. I guess it'll depend how quickly they want to inflate stats, but last expansion they weren't out till the third. Regardless, as you said you can't put a yellow gem in a meta socket, so I'm not sure how much that matters.

I do hope that by that point they'll have backed off from this original meta change to something a bit less overly mathy. Perhaps while they're at it they can fix whatever it is that's causing DKs to value crit and mastery at such a low value as well.

Edited by Zeherah on 11/20/2010 1:42 AM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
11140
Does it really matter... you are going to have like 1 raid lockout between 4.0.3a and when you start leveling.


Yes, because it's not like the requirements are magically going to change at 85.


Level 85 is different, you will actually have to use your blue sockets for hit gems (and the amount of hit to cap will be constantly rising as the expansion goes on, unlike wotlk).
Also with reforging, if you have extra hit, you can just reforge.


I'm already using my blue sockets for hit gems and reforging the extra hit. What I'm saying is that if I have to put pure hit in my blue sockets just to activate a meta, activating the meta may not even be worth it.
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100 Human Death Knight
11140

Mastery for Unholy DKs is very very very bad and we DPS in unholy presence which has 15% run speed baked in.

Also, once the Cata epic gems come out (likely in the 2nd tier of raiding), the crit meta, since the secondary effect is garbage for PvE, might actually be less useful than a pure crit yellow gem (not that you could put a yellow gem in a meta socket), which is kind of lame imo.


Well you've already made it clear you find those stats not useful to DKs. I was speaking more generally. I'm assuming there are some classes for whom mastery is not totally useless and who don't get free runspeed as part of their basic spec implementation or talents. I'm considering using it myself, although as a hunter the runspeed is less critical, it's still nice to have. I don't expect all socket bonuses will be worth picking up, but a lot of them are pretty nice so I expect there may be a few orange gems in my gear.

I'm not sure if we'll see epic gems till the third tier of raiding. I guess it'll depend how quickly they want to inflate stats, but last expansion they weren't out till the third. Regardless, as you said you can't put a yellow gem in a meta socket, so I'm not sure how much that matters.

I do hope that by that point they'll have backed off from this original meta change to something a bit less overly mathy. Perhaps while they're at it they can fix whatever it is that's causing DKs to value crit and mastery at such a low value as well.


I agree that for some classes it won't be a huge issue because mastery is actually a pretty good stat for them and run speed is helpful if you don't already have it, but I don't think we're gonna see too many people using the crit % one just because the requirements are so bad.

Also, you're right, epic gems only came out in Wrath for 3.2, I thought it was earlier than that.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14760

I'm already using my blue sockets for hit gems and reforging the extra hit. What I'm saying is that if I have to put pure hit in my blue sockets just to activate a meta, activating the meta may not even be worth it.


Well technically to activate the meta you can put purple gems into all the red and blue sockets, and one green in a yellow socket, but I'm not sure it results in any better stats. For JCs there will need to be some pure blues to make up for the pure reds, which will be a bit of a pain.

I did a rough mathing out of it on my beta site for an SV premade hunter and it did math out to about a 60dps gain to go for the 3% crit dmg meta. So in full epics for some folks it may be worthwhile (which leads me to believe as gear levels increase most classes will eventually use it). But I haven't fully tweaked the numbers there yet, so it's possible my calculations are off. Plus the hassles of making the gemming work for it are so annoying that it's got to be a clear advantage or else people won't bother. Every new item will throw things out of whack again.

I just think it's rather silly to have a meta designed in such a way that people are going to need to sketch all their gems out on paper first before gemming in order to make sure they don't screw it up.
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