If you are balancing around BGs...

85 Blood Elf Rogue
8280
Then it's ok for casters to actually cast. Making every ability in the game instant or nearly instant is charming for an FPS, or even small scale PvP like arenas, but it really removes the skill cap from group PvP and turns it into a numbers game.

Pretty much every class has a stun, interrupt, or blanket silence at this point which (in the context of BGs) are stacked, spammed, and used indiscriminately to more or less lock down whichever side has fewer players.

It'd be nice if perhaps some of the instant cast spells and CC were removed rather than adding more as you seem to do every expansion.

It'd also be nice if there were some recognition that in a large scale PvP environment that there is a point, numbers wise, that ranged DPS begins to massively outscale melee in group encounters. What I mean is that a Warrior might beat a Warlock 1v1, but 8 Warlocks would annihilate 8 Warriors easily since melee is infinitely more susceptible to AoE CC and has more difficulty in assisting on targets.

Since you guys have more or less said that you'll be balancing around BG play from here on out it'd be nice if you'd deign to share some of your ideas on what actually constitutes fun and balanced play in BGs. If it's a ***#fest of instant spammed abilities, prot classes sitting on top of flags spamming AoE, and the absolute domination of numbers then I fear we are in for a disappointing expansion.
Reply Quote
74 Draenei Mage
750
Why would you list Warlocks in a instant cast QQ post? almost everything is casted or channeled.
Reply Quote
Warlocks are an instant cast class?

Neither destro or aff is an instant class and Demo is the hard casting king.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Rogue
8280
Why would you list Warlocks in a instant cast QQ post? almost everything is casted or channeled.


Read the post, I picked Warlocks as a hypothetical ranged class for the 1v1 versus 8v8 example. I couldn't really use Mages since they'd beat a Warrior 1v1 and destroy them 8v8.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Warlock
7085
A casting class that can kill someone without ever being open to a lockout is a problem. I never really see this at 85, though, and the only time I've seen it at 80 after 4.0 is from Frost Mages and occasionally from a Moonkin with all their cooldowns going against a target with low HP/resilience. Every other caster spec needs to use cast times against an equally geared/skilled opponent.

If the caster completely outgears you or you have no cooldowns up or you completely mistime or fail to use your abilities, they might kill you without ever having to cast. But in those situations, you're really supposed to be losing anyway. You're not supposed to be able to win if you screw up repeatedly or are unprepared, and people several gear tiers above you are supposed to have an advantage.

I do agree with you that the number of long stuns/instant CCs is a little outrageous in large encounters. If I were to guess, I would theorize that this was done to promote more variety in viable team compositions, since classes that don't bring any valuable offensive tools such as stuns, interrupts, silences or healing reduction effects tend to be discarded from serious PvP. Teams have gotten more diverse, but one added result is that in large confrontations it's possible to get hit with so many CC effects, one after another, that you can spend the majority of your combat time unable to control your character or use your abilities.

There's no easy solution to that, though. It's a complex problem. You take away too much control and PvP is just a DPS/healing race. You add too much and it's just a race to spam/dispel CCs and the side that does it best wins. Ultimately you want a balance of CC use/coordinated DPS and healing, but that's not at all simple to achieve.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
6070
The questionable premise is the assumption that they ARE balancing around bgs.

Just because rated bgs are coming out doesn't necessarily alter the fisheye of balance issues. If anything the terrain should be altered before major class decisions are made in response to finding a happy point between bgs and arena.
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Mage
3260

The PVP gear in Cataclysm is actually EASIER to get than it ever was in BC....which is a little frightening.
why? what are you skerred of? your opponents having basically the same gear as you?

so, then, your skill is what determines a win then right?

what a terrible concept.
Reply Quote
85 Human Mage
9505

The PVP gear in Cataclysm is actually EASIER to get than it ever was in BC....which is a little frightening.
why? what are you skerred of? your opponents having basically the same gear as you?

so, then, your skill is what determines a win then right?

what a terrible concept.


No, I'm not scared of people having equal gear in pvp lol.

I'm scared of the fact that there won't be a lot of incentive or drive to push to the top rating when all you get is some vanity re-skins, which could make PVP participation massively dwindle.

Imagine heroic modes only provided you with re-skinned gear. Would you spend hours practicing, wiping, talking about strats and pushing to down those heroic modes?

Most people wouldn't be bothered, even a lot of people who could have been bothered before, just don't care enough by re-skinned armor models to put in the effort when they already essentially have the "best" they can get.


What i want when beating heroic modes is not gear, just the accomplishment.
In every game, as far as i know, what matters when you finish is the sense of getting it done, not the ephemeral rewards (like gear in WoW).
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Warrior
4465

The PVP gear in Cataclysm is actually EASIER to get than it ever was in BC....which is a little frightening.
why? what are you skerred of? your opponents having basically the same gear as you?

so, then, your skill is what determines a win then right?

what a terrible concept.


No, I'm not scared of people having equal gear in pvp lol.

I'm scared of the fact that there won't be a lot of incentive or drive to push to the top rating when all you get is some vanity re-skins, which could make PVP participation massively dwindle.

Imagine heroic modes only provided you with re-skinned gear. Would you spend hours practicing, wiping, talking about strats and pushing to down those heroic modes?

Most people wouldn't be bothered, even a lot of people who could have been bothered before, just don't care enough by re-skinned armor models to put in the effort when they already essentially have the "best" they can get.


What i want when beating heroic modes is not gear, just the accomplishment.
In every game, as far as i know, what matters when you finish is the sense of getting it done, not the ephemeral rewards (like gear in WoW).


I'n a perfect world, more people would think this way, but there's no denying that better rewards beyond asthetics (aka, more powerful gear) for more effort is the carrot on the stick for many players.

Hopefully, a t2 pvp weapon with a rating requirement will be all that's needed to keep the fish biting and feeding the ladder on the pvp side of things if there are no changes in store.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Hunter
9620
There was a very informational blue post a while back when they first brought RBGs to our attention. Would definitely take some digging but I believe it explained that they will always be balancing around small skirmishes of teams where both sides have 3, 4, or 5 players each with healers present. Basically 3s and 5s arena.

The reasoning is they can't balance 1v1 with healers, because of this 2v2 kind of dies out, and that it's better macro.

The more people show up, the less class favoring will exist. IE in 2v2 if a Warrior comp meets a Lock comp, lock comp is in for some **##. You throw that same warrior/lock into opposing 5s teams, and the class counter just got watered down. In practice if they balance around 3s/5s, this will happen in RBGs, making hard/heavy counters less potent while maintaining an anchor to work with.

Also they said, if they balance around 10v10 and 15v15, they said they risk breaking arena (which they do not want), and that it's pretty silly since most teams will have smaller coordinated groups doing various tasks inside of the RBG team. Battle Royales of actually having all 10-15 players duking it out in open territory likely won't be a constant in RBGs. It certainly isn't a recurring event when I run premade vs premade as objectives are present and more important than HKs.

Basically TLDR: If you balance around 3v3/5v5, BG play will in turn also end up somewhat balanced and BG/arena crowds are both happy. If you balance around 10v10 or 15v15, you risk breaking arena play, and only 1 crowd is happy. Also if you balance classes around always having 9-14 other people with you, you could end up breaking the classes themselves.
Edited by Rãwr on 11/20/2010 3:21 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Troll Shaman
6490
Demo is the hard casting king.


Caster is an outdated name for magic users in WoW, they don't do it anymore, at least in PvP.
Use the term Wizard.


Ele shaman would like a word with you
Edited by Okaithul on 11/20/2010 3:56 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Troll Shaman
6490
People should look at your gear and know that you are a professional player.


If you are getting paid to play, IE: a professional. you should get some recognition. Totally agree with you.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]