Shaman: Riptide/Chain Heal synergy

85 Orc Shaman
5380
Would anyone else really like to see the bonus chain heal gets for consuming riptide change? The 25% is pretty weak compared to the dot. If many people are hurt it might not even be worth consuming the dot, since it affects only one chain heal. Even consuming the HOT right before the last tick only nets you 2-3k more healing and would involve a fair amount of micromanagement.

I would really like to see something like:

Your Chain Heal consumes the (riptide) heal over time effect to increase the chance of applying earthliving to all affected targets by 60%(so it's guaranteed) but at some fraction of the duration(like half duration).

Or even spread the riptide HOT to all targets at half the remaining duration. Kind of like what hunter talent does to their wyvern sting, when it's dispelled.
Edited by Azloz on 11/20/2010 9:59 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
13315
The 25% boost is not meant to the right thing to do every time, it is a passive bonus to an ability that allows you the choice of doing healing over time - or do a large amount of healing immediately. Also CH will benefit from mastery fully next patch, meaning raid health will have to factor in when it is worth consuming the HoT.

Your suggestion however is basically that you should consume the HoT to do additional HoTs... which seems less like a choice and more like a straight buff to healing in Wrath-style fights with mainly aura damage.
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85 Orc Shaman
5380
To me the choice should be:

Is their raid damage? Yes? Consume the buff. Otherwise let it tick.

Right now the bonus from consuming it really isn't that worth it. In raid damage situations it is probably better to keep the dot on someone and chain heal someone else. The dot is pretty potent, especially if glyphed.

I would just like there to be more incentive to consume it, since there doesn't seem to be much now.

Consuming a hot to add more(weaker hots) might not be the way to go about it, but the mechanic seems to be lacking atm.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150
To me the choice should be:

Is their raid damage? Yes? Consume the buff. Otherwise let it tick.

Right now the bonus from consuming it really isn't that worth it. In raid damage situations it is probably better to keep the dot on someone and chain heal someone else. The dot is pretty potent, especially if glyphed.

I would just like there to be more incentive to consume it, since there doesn't seem to be much now.

Consuming a hot to add more(weaker hots) might not be the way to go about it, but the mechanic seems to be lacking atm.

Do HLK, you'll thank gawd you have the boosted chain heal.

Any encounter of that type, and I predict there will be a lot of them, you will want the boosted chain.

Riptide in cata is still much to like the riptide of wrath. Used very situationally. I don't see much benefit to the hot still.
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85 Orc Shaman
5380

Do HLK, you'll thank gawd you have the boosted chain heal.

Any encounter of that type, and I predict there will be a lot of them, you will want the boosted chain.

Riptide in cata is still much to like the riptide of wrath. Used very situationally. I don't see much benefit to the hot still.


Do you do something Riptide->something that uses tidal waves->chain heal to consume the charge>??

Just casting riptide for the purpose of boosting the chain heal can't be worth it.
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85 Goblin Shaman
3350
I'd like to see it give it a one-time increase (of 25% or 35%) to the critical chance of the next chain heal instead of a one-time increase to the healing amount (to better make use of AA)... but I don't think it is something that -needs- to be changed.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11275
It is when you need the burst is more important than overall throughput. Although there aren't that many fights on beta that are like that. HPM > Burst on all fights except 2 that I can think of.

But basically what someone else said above. It should be a choice, not something you feel you need to do for your CH to be properly strong.
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85 Draenei Shaman
7470
To me the choice should be:

Is their raid damage? Yes? Consume the buff. Otherwise let it tick.

Right now the bonus from consuming it really isn't that worth it. In raid damage situations it is probably better to keep the dot on someone and chain heal someone else. The dot is pretty potent, especially if glyphed.

I would just like there to be more incentive to consume it, since there doesn't seem to be much now.

Consuming a hot to add more(weaker hots) might not be the way to go about it, but the mechanic seems to be lacking atm.

Do HLK, you'll thank gawd you have the boosted chain heal.

Any encounter of that type, and I predict there will be a lot of them, you will want the boosted chain.

Riptide in cata is still much to like the riptide of wrath. Used very situationally. I don't see much benefit to the hot still.

It seemed more beneficial for me to just cast CH when there was aoe dmg in HLK, not waste time with a silly hot.
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85 Orc Shaman
5380

It seemed more beneficial for me to just cast CH when there was aoe dmg in HLK, not waste time with a silly hot.


See, that's what I was thinking. It doesn't seem like the 25% is enough more "burst" to be worth the GCD you didn't spend on a whole second chain heal. 2 100% chain heals > 1 125% chain heal for burst raid damage.

It's lackluster and is too weak of a choice. There are few times when you want to make that choice and it doesn't feel like you gain much when you do choose correctly.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
13315
It seemed more beneficial for me to just cast CH when there was aoe dmg in HLK, not waste time with a silly hot.
What you shouldn't be doing is : Infest happened. Cast riptide. Cast Chain Heal. - Fail
What you should be doing is: Infest Happened. Chain Heal lands immediately after on a target you preemtively Riptided before infest.
-[likely that &*^% frost DK who's howling blast pulled an add and broke his shield. *&%^ing frost DKs.]

Infest is a great example of an ability where healing over 12 seconds means nothing compared to healing immediately. Freya's ground tremor is a great example of having to get the raids health high enough immediately to survive the random damage. Burst healing people above the 1 shot line sometimes takes priority over HoTs.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150
^^ paly knows wats up. thats it exactly
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85 Orc Shaman
5380
What you shouldn't be doing is : Infest happened. Cast riptide. Cast Chain Heal. - Fail
What you should be doing is: Infest Happened. Chain Heal lands immediately after on a target you preemtively Riptided before infest.
-[likely that &*^% frost DK who's howling blast pulled an add and broke his shield. *&%^ing frost DKs.]

Infest is a great example of an ability where healing over 12 seconds means nothing compared to healing immediately. Freya's ground tremor is a great example of having to get the raids health high enough immediately to survive the random damage. Burst healing people above the 1 shot line sometimes takes priority over HoTs.


Fair enough, but really, we found one(I know other encounters have this, but it's the same basic idea) situation where it is beneficial to plan ahead for a big hit, but even then it's only 25%, how much does that extra thousand and a half really do on the people with 40k health?

It is useful in some situations and good players will make use of it while others won't, but for all the planning involved you gain very little. You remove a potent hot for a small boost to a heal.

Really is the extra 25% even worth not leaving the hot on the first person? It's way more healing on that person and barely less on others.
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90 Goblin Shaman
11415


Riptide in cata is still much to like the riptide of wrath. Used very situationally. I don't see much benefit to the hot still.


Uh, if you use riptide "very situationally" in cataclysm then you are going to be bad. You will need tidal waves up as close to 100% of the time to even heal effectively... and there will definitely be many times when you will not cast CH to put it up (not to mention CH costs like 2-3x the mana of riptide).
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85 Orc Shaman
5380
^^ paly knows wats up. thats it exactly


Why didn't you take two points from Totemic Focus and one from Blessing of the Eternals(the second point is half wasted anyway, since you have the glyph) and put them into Focused insight and use a shock just before an infest to bump up your chain heal even further than the riptide does?
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90 Draenei Shaman
12640
^^ paly knows wats up. thats it exactly


Why didn't you take two points from Totemic Focus and one from Blessing of the Eternals(the second point is half wasted anyway, since you have the glyph) and put them into Focused insight and use a shock just before an infest to bump up your chain heal even further than the riptide does?

Because it misses
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150
^^ paly knows wats up. thats it exactly


Why didn't you take two points from Totemic Focus and one from Blessing of the Eternals(the second point is half wasted anyway, since you have the glyph) and put them into Focused insight and use a shock just before an infest to bump up your chain heal even further than the riptide does?

because it's a terrible terrible talent. Why would I take something thats a monster hps loss...
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150


Riptide in cata is still much to like the riptide of wrath. Used very situationally. I don't see much benefit to the hot still.


Uh, if you use riptide "very situationally" in cataclysm then you are going to be bad. You will need tidal waves up as close to 100% of the time to even heal effectively... and there will definitely be many times when you will not cast CH to put it up (not to mention CH costs like 2-3x the mana of riptide).

I doubt this very much. If CH hops, it's the spell you cast. From what I've seen of raiding, this is true most of the time. As with wrath, using a GCD to cast a riptide just to have it up is bad when you can chain instead.

However, once CH is not going to hop, then things open up as to spell selection. For me though, I still don't use riptide as I would rather save it for when we move. It's situational where I'll use it when not moving. single target low damage DOT, or raider save, preemptive CH buffer for decimate or infest mechanic, etc. Same as when we used it in wrath. Riptide is NOT a keep on GCD spell in any way shape or form.
Edited by Jynus on 11/20/2010 8:13 PM PST
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85 Orc Shaman
5380
because it's a terrible terrible talent. Why would I take something thats a monster hps loss...


Then I'm confused.

The people telling me that (the consume effect of) riptide is okay are doing so on the basis that sometimes burst healing> throughput(hps). I can see that point and agree. But Focused insight is the very definition of that.

To say that the consume effect on riptide is good, but that talent is terrible doesn't make sense. If one is good, why not stack both for some real chain heal burst?

Edited by Azloz on 11/20/2010 7:27 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
13315
The issue with Focused Insight is:
(A) You do zero healing in the GCD you spent shocking
(B) Shocks miss as resto. There is no "Glyph of Divine Accuracy: Boosts Smite hit chance by 18%" for Earth Shock or any other shock. Missed shocks don't refund the mana cost or boost the healing done of the following cast.
(C) Focused Insight is a 3 point talent, and shaman's don't have infinite talent points to spend on just anything. Totemic Focus is a 11% boost to mana regen by spirit for your entire party.
(D) In order to use to deal with burst healing you have to make sure the thing you do immediately before your big cast. You can't do it in advance beyond that.

Overall, speccing into Focused Insight is a risk, you sacrifice a serious amount of regen for your entire healing squad, hoping that you'll have a free GCD right before the infest to shock. Hoping it won't miss.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150
because it's a terrible terrible talent. Why would I take something thats a monster hps loss...


Then I'm confused.

The people telling me that (the consume effect of) riptide is okay are doing so on the basis that sometimes burst healing> throughput(hps). I can see that point and agree. But Focused insight is the very definition of that.

To say that the consume effect on riptide is good, but that talent is terrible doesn't make sense. If one is good, why not stack both for some real chain heal burst?

hps loss part. riptide will be a netsum or slight loss in healing. FI is just a kick in the junk. not worth it. and it can miss, and have to be close to the boss... riptide doesn't have these restrictions.

edit: and to add to this. I can riptide and continue casting for quite a while before I need to 'consume' it for my boosted chain. Again FI is restricted in this useage.

double edit: from an earlier post of yours. I don't think you understand how the ELW glyph works. It doen't increase your chance to proc itself. just increases the power of it's ticks. the talent points are not wasted at all...
Edited by Jynus on 11/20/2010 8:12 PM PST
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