Rogue Stat Scaling, and What Needs to Change

85 Worgen Rogue
7775
This post is mainly to bring to light some scaling 'issues' or 'problems' that rogues face. While I know other classes have problems (Enhancement Shaman's melee damage scaling causing them to prefer a caster main hand, for example), this is mostly to try and help cause some fixes/buffs to rogue damage that would not only help their current/cataclysm DPS (which I've heard from multiple sources that its lacking in both entry and end of current raid tier), but also help fix the classic issue... Our lack of scaling. I'll identify every stat, its problems, and what should be changed to help that scale.

Information garnered that made me post this comes from Elitist Jerks, these forums, and recount testing from pure auto-attacks in my PvE spec and gear (average item level around 264). Now, without further ado.

Agility: Ah agility, arising from being slightly better/worse than its worth in attack power, and becoming the defacto 'why the hell would you want something different?' stat. Yet, while agility is fan-frickin-tastic, and scales well from Kings and Leather Specialization, it has one issue in its scaling... That is, the crit portion of its damage isn't applied to poisons. This is a significant lag to our poison damage, which makes up a core part of Mutilate's damage, and thus perhaps one of the reasons combat scales better than Mutilate (disregarding Mastery).
The Fix: Make a change to poisons to count them as melee abilities that cannot be dodged or parried and cause nature damage, sort of like how envenom works (minus the cannot be dodged or parried). This will make the abilities scale from agility crit, and also fix an issue I will address in the crit rating portion of my post. Alternatively, change the Poison Use passive ability to also give the benefit of agility increasing spell critical strike rating (I can't even say instead of Intelligence, as Intelligence no longer increases a rogue's spell crit). This wouldn't be as clean as the above system, but WOULD keep it to using the spell hit table.

Haste: Ah haste, how we love thee as our de facto secondary stat after reaching expertise and spell hit. How you've come to grace our lives with extra white damage AND more energy... And yet how you make us scratch our heads about how, despite the mechanic homogenization of other class's, you still fail to scale with some of our abilities. Haste is awesome though, it scales with our white damage, and most of our yellow damage... Except for Rupture.
The Fix: Make rupture gain additional ticks over the duration from haste as practically every other DoT in Cataclysm WoW does. Rupture so far is a very weak ability, and even in current tier would only grant around ~30% extra damage from haste (this would be even lower in the less gear inflated environment of 85).

Critical Strike: How can an ability go so right... Being somewhat equivalent with haste for Mutilate and suddenly dropped down to the bottom of the barrel for all specs (save for combat, which saves Mastery for that role). Admittedly, this is with current item level EP and might improve for Mutilate at 85 to garner more combo points to maintain a steady rotation, but it seems like this benefit won't over take the energy regen from haste to just mutilate again. And of course, there's one platant culprit for the poor performance of this stat... Poisons! Poisons still count as spells (see the problem with agility, above), and beyond using spell crit and hit, they also crit like a spell... for 150% damage. While most casters got 200% damage critting spells passive, rogues have failed to receive this upgrade to something that constitutes 10%+ of its damage for Mutilate Rogues (interesting news, Deadly Poison can crit!). Death Knights, perhaps the closet class to rogue's in its mixture of melee/spell damage, receives 200% spell crit from a passive ability and it seems criminal to not put a similar ability on rogue poisons!
The Fix: Similar to the above fix for Poisons, roll in the capacity for poisons to crit for full (200%) damage. This is of course another buff for Mutilate than the other two specs, but Mutilate has had more problems with scaling than combat has (except, of course, with mastery).
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85 Worgen Rogue
7775
Mastery: Everyone knows that the combat Mastery is broken... In a terrible, horrible, completely worthless way. Everyone knows that it needs to be fixed (by procing off hand attacks for main hand strikes, or by changing Combat Potency to a PPM mechanic). However, beyond it's terribleness, the other two specs have a bit lacking in Mastery as well. Because of the deversity of Mastery for the three specs, I will divide this up into three sections.
The Fix (Assassination): Mastery currently doesn't affect Envenom's damage, a major component of our poison/nature damage. This is almost equivalent to if Enhancement's Mastery didn't affect their shocks (or other core component of their spell damage). While Envenom has been decoupled from poisons (by its move from Vile Poison to Coupe De Grace), I still believe the Mastery should still affect this finisher as, not only would it lead to more yellow damage (a goal for rogues in Cataclysm), but bring the Mastery to be more equivalent with haste.
The Fix (Combat): Quite frankly, it needs to be redesigned to cause an off hand attack to trigger a main hand attack. There has been an excuse that they wanted Main Gauche to work in the way it does so that combat rogues who don't have access to a fast off hand feel penalized... Well, there's making a way for it to work with both styles (slow/fast and slow/slow). Simply put, change it to have a PPM chance from the off hand to trigger a main hand attack! That way, both slow/slow and slow/fast will get the same benefit from it (having the same number of procs from their off hands to trigger what should be their most damaging weapon in their main hand). Increasing Mastery could either increase this PPM chance, or increase the damage caused by this main hand attack. There you go Blizzard, a simple fix to a terrible mastery that doesn't penalize combat rogues with a slow main hand.
The Fix (Subtly): I am unsure of what subtly might have with mastery, but I am aware with a few. Subtly's rotation is rather... a clusterfick right now. Allowing Subtly's Mastery to increase the duration of Slice and Dice and Recuperate will help with this.
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85 Worgen Rogue
7775
Now, for those interested, the details of the damage parse that I used to confirm a number of these issues (specifically the issues with spell crit and poison damage). This data was collected by alt+tabbing to make this post while my rogue attacked the dummy for 25 straight minutes.

1. Melee (Count 2503, 43% of damage)
    Crit (Count 904, 36.1%), Average 1,032 damage
    Hit (Count 700, 28.0%), Average 526 damage
    Glancing (Count 604, 24.1%), Average 376 damage

2. Deadly Poison (Count 512, 30.9% of damage)
    Crit (Count 71, 13.9%), Average 3102 damage
    Tick (Count 441, 86.1%), Average 1988 damage

3. Instant Poison (Count 645, 26.2% of damage)
    Crit (Count 87, 13.5%), Average 2076 damage
    Hit (Count 558, 86.5%), Average 1344 damage.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
11015
- I 100% agree with you on Agi vs Poisons. It doesn't make sense that nearly 50% of an Assassin Rogues damage doesn't scale fully with Agility. Not much to say other than that.

- Haste vs Rupture:

Attach Venomous Wounds to Deadly Poison ticks. Works exactly the same, but allows Assassination to just stop using Rupture altogether. I favor this option much more if Blizzard insists on leaving Combat with it's ramp-up. Rogues need at least one spec that can target swap, and allowing Assassination to drop Rupture would put it in a decent position to take up that job.

3.) Crit vs. Poisons: Also 100% agree here. Crit would be a much more valuable stat if Rogues could get 100% benefit out it, and your fix takes care of that.

EDIT:

And yes, Envenom needs to benefit from mastery.

Assassination is far from being overpowered in PVP, the buff to Envenom really wouldn't do much to cause an uproar. At most it would make the spec a glass cannon.
Edited by Skamp on 11/20/2010 3:13 AM PST
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85 Worgen Rogue
7775
I believe you're slightly mistaken. Haste doesn't cause a DoT to tick faster and lower its duration. It causes it to tick faster AND add more ticks.

If Rupture was affected by Haste it would still last the normal duration, it would just gain more ticks over that duration (for example, in current gear, we would get 30% more ticks over our rupture duration).
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
11015
Disregard my first idea then.

However, I still stand by my "drop Rupture altogether" stance assuming Blizzard leaves Combat the way it is.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
11015
Oh and a comment about Combat Mastery:

Most Rogues already agree with what you posted for the change.

The thing is, I'm beginning to think Blizzard is actually intending for Combat to use dual slow, if not now then definitely down the line. Really the only thing that is making Main Gauche bad right now, with that in mind, is Combat Potency. And it would be pretty easy to fix that: Just make Combat Potency PPM based.
Edited by Skamp on 11/20/2010 1:59 AM PST
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85 Worgen Rogue
7775
Oh and a comment about Combat Mastery:

Most Rogues already agree with what you posted for the change.

The thing is, I'm beginning to think Blizzard is actually intending for Combat to use dual slow, if not now then definitely down the line. Really the only thing that is making Main Gauche bad right now, with that in mind, is Combat Potency. And it would be pretty easy to fix that: Just make Combat Potency PPM based.


That and Deadly Poisons, but that's much less of a DPS loss than combat potency. ;)

The thing is though, changing Combat Potency into a PPM effect just leads to the opposite problem. Sure, Combat has been rail roaded into going slow/slow so they don't have to make fast agility swords/axes/fists/maces (although they could just add these into point vendors...), but then what of the people who PREFERRED the old slow/fast set up? They would effectively trade 95% of the spec's populace and force them into a play style that's been alien to the rogue concept since its launch (or rather, since Burning Crusades as old rogues used to run with a 2.0 Dagger and a 2.6 Sword in their off hand... Ahh Barman's Shanker/Thunderfurry...).

By changing the Mastery into a PPM effect of their off hand to proc a main hand attack (scaling with more mastery either by damage done or by chance to proc), and changing Combat Potency, both styles could co-exist. One would have slightly higher Killing Spree damage (slow/slow) and use wound poison/deadly poison, the other would have slightly higher poison damage and likely phase into instant/deadly after their gear reaches a certain point.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
11015
Oh and a comment about Combat Mastery:

Most Rogues already agree with what you posted for the change.

The thing is, I'm beginning to think Blizzard is actually intending for Combat to use dual slow, if not now then definitely down the line. Really the only thing that is making Main Gauche bad right now, with that in mind, is Combat Potency. And it would be pretty easy to fix that: Just make Combat Potency PPM based.


That and Deadly Poisons, but that's much less of a DPS loss than combat potency. ;)

The thing is though, changing Combat Potency into a PPM effect just leads to the opposite problem. Sure, Combat has been rail roaded into going slow/slow so they don't have to make fast agility swords/axes/fists/maces (although they could just add these into point vendors...), but then what of the people who PREFERRED the old slow/fast set up? They would effectively trade 95% of the spec's populace and force them into a play style that's been alien to the rogue concept since its launch (or rather, since Burning Crusades as old rogues used to run with a 2.0 Dagger and a 2.6 Sword in their off hand... Ahh Barman's Shanker/Thunderfurry...).

By changing the Mastery into a PPM effect of their off hand to proc a main hand attack (scaling with more mastery either by damage done or by chance to proc), and changing Combat Potency, both styles could co-exist. One would have slightly higher Killing Spree damage (slow/slow) and use wound poison/deadly poison, the other would have slightly higher poison damage and likely phase into instant/deadly after their gear reaches a certain point.


Look at it this way: Currently in Cataclysm, there are no 1.4/1.5 speed non-dagger weapons. Why? Because only 1 spec (Well I guess 2 if you count Sub) uses them. Every other 1 hander dual wielding class in the game uses Slow/Slow. Now with that in mind, it would be so much easier for them from a design standpoint if they could just stop making 1.4/1.5 weapons. Now granted we still have 1.4 daggers that exist, and with the removal of weapon specializations they are now open to Combat. But to be honest, I really believe those will stop existing too. I really wouldn't be surprised if later down the line we had Combat doing 2.6/2.6 and Assassination doing 1.8/1.8.

Which I guess really isn't a bad thing.
Edited by Skamp on 11/20/2010 2:20 AM PST
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85 Worgen Rogue
7775
While I can certainly understand that point, I still don't think its something they should force upon combat. Give them the option to go slow/slow if they want, sure, but to force it on all combat rogues who are used to and probably like slow/fast is just as bad as when they forced all warriors to use two-handed weapons (something they're fixing with Single Minded Furry being implemented in Cataclysm). Not to mention that the suggested fix I just gave would work for both roles (so those wanting to run with a dagger in their off hand for more deadly poison procs can do so if they want to).

Also pumping to bring more attention to this and hope for some more feed back.
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90 Goblin Rogue
9475
While I can certainly understand that point, I still don't think its something they should force upon combat. Give them the option to go slow/slow if they want, sure, but to force it on all combat rogues who are used to and probably like slow/fast is just as bad as when they forced all warriors to use two-handed weapons (something they're fixing with Single Minded Furry being implemented in Cataclysm). Not to mention that the suggested fix I just gave would work for both roles (so those wanting to run with a dagger in their off hand for more deadly poison procs can do so if they want to).

Also pumping to bring more attention to this and hope for some more feed back.


I really could care less if Combat was slow/fast or slow/slow as long as it is competive..
If need a fast dagger and slow/axe or sword... I am good
Whatever, I just want combat to be viable, and it is not close now...
I have seen little about how combat is viable at 85 either, or will smokebomb be the cure...
0.o
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
11015
While I can certainly understand that point, I still don't think its something they should force upon combat. Give them the option to go slow/slow if they want, sure, but to force it on all combat rogues who are used to and probably like slow/fast is just as bad as when they forced all warriors to use two-handed weapons (something they're fixing with Single Minded Furry being implemented in Cataclysm). Not to mention that the suggested fix I just gave would work for both roles (so those wanting to run with a dagger in their off hand for more deadly poison procs can do so if they want to).

Also pumping to bring more attention to this and hope for some more feed back.


I really could care less if Combat was slow/fast or slow/slow as long as it is competive..
If need a fast dagger and slow/axe or sword... I am good
Whatever, I just want combat to be viable, and it is not close now...
I have seen little about how combat is viable at 85 either, or will smokebomb be the cure...
0.o


From what I've heard, the damage is actually pretty decent now. But it's still punishes you for target swapping, still has way more ramp-up than it should, and most importantly, it's still isn't fun to play.

Assassination will still be the dominant spec because it does basically everything the same, but punishes you less for being a good player.
Edited by Skamp on 11/20/2010 6:04 PM PST
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