Afraid to go over 14 raiders

100 Human Paladin
13675
12/16/2013 08:39 PMPosted by Barbobot
Also isn't that a fix coming in 6.0?


Much earlier apparently. Hotfixed today (though not sure if it'll be active until tomorrows resets or not).


It's active now. I'm presently in a Flex raid on my alt with my guild and we got 3 zones on Malkorok, sometimes 4. So it's working.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
13720
Anyone have link to the hotfix?

I missed this on mmo champ
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Game Designer
You can read the latest hotfix notes here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/11944164/542_Hotfixes_December_16-12_16_2013

Fun fact: The hotfix has actually been active since just before the weekend, but it didn't get caught in the prior round of hotfix notes. It's no surprise that it went largely unnoticed, since most all of the abilities with actual breakpoints going from 14->15 are things with very minor impact (Protectors' Shadow Word: Bane, Nazgrim's Bonecracker, Hisek's Multi-Shot, etc.). There are indeed a couple of more impactful breakpoints on Garrosh's Touch of Y'Shaarj and Sha of Pride's Imprison, but those both occur at raid sizes well above 14, and randomization isn't the correct solution to either.

The 14-player "magic number" is actually a fairly interesting social dynamic, since there never was anything particularly special about the number, and now there really is objectively no advantage. As we've said in the past, there's certainly nothing wrong with wanting to form a 14-player raid, but if you're turning away strong players or friends because you're convinced that your raid as a whole will have a harder time, you're making a mistake.
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98 Worgen Mage
17990
I suspect that it was also a convenient excuse for group leaders to not go to the trouble of finding more healers, if 3:14 was perceived as a comfortable ratio for pug healers. Definitely some deception was in play there though.

I hope in the future, organizers will see that it's worth it to add that 4th or 5th healer and fill the raid up to 25. Might take a bit longer, but it will be a more sociable and fun experience. (and easier)
Edited by Digerati on 12/16/2013 11:56 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
11780
It is interesting that the number 14 has risen to prominence. Just like the party in The Hobbit. "I was chosen for the lucky number."
Of course there is the superstition around the number 13, which would contribute slightly to 14 being more popular, but there are many other neat, historical reasons why 14 is significant as a group size. I recommend reading the Wikipedia page for 14. It's an interesting number.
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The 'magic number' is simply yet another example of some jack-!@# coming up with a baseless theory and the sheep-like mentality of a huge number of players simply accept it unquestioningly.

Don't look at MMO player-bases for a concentration of intelligence.
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100 Tauren Hunter
13800
Has any of you done Garrosh in flex?
Because there IS a breakpoint at 15.
When you add the 15th person you get 3 mc's instead of 2.
Since i really only do him in Flex for BoA's ive noticed that that seems to wipe groups very badly if you dont go from 14 to at least 20-25 to make the extra dps + dps loss off not hitting garrosh over MC's wipe almost every time.
it's either 14 or less and a quick one shot or 20+ but anything in between is horribad.

So with that plus trying to find 25 people i just say screw it and run a quick 10 man flex :P
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90 Human Warlock
5180
Has any of you done Garrosh in flex?
Because there IS a breakpoint at 15.
When you add the 15th person you get 3 mc's instead of 2.


There are indeed a couple of more impactful breakpoints on Garrosh's Touch of Y'Shaarj and Sha of Pride's Imprison, but those both occur at raid sizes well above 14, and randomization isn't the correct solution to either.


No, I haven't but pretty sure Watcher knows how Garrosh mind control works...
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90 Pandaren Warrior
11820
it's anther bulls^&$ thing trying say true but it's not, 15 in only thing happens health goes up only so quit trying fake out people and make harder for other trying do flex raid.
mc can be feared,stun and kill pretty quickly if on ball.
if can't keep up with it ya need quit tunnel vision things.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
13720
You can read the latest hotfix notes here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/11944164/542_Hotfixes_December_16-12_16_2013

Fun fact: The hotfix has actually been active since just before the weekend, but it didn't get caught in the prior round of hotfix notes. It's no surprise that it went largely unnoticed, since most all of the abilities with actual breakpoints going from 14->15 are things with very minor impact (Protectors' Shadow Word: Bane, Nazgrim's Bonecracker, Hisek's Multi-Shot, etc.). There are indeed a couple of more impactful breakpoints on Garrosh's Touch of Y'Shaarj and Sha of Pride's Imprison, but those both occur at raid sizes well above 14, and randomization isn't the correct solution to either.

The 14-player "magic number" is actually a fairly interesting social dynamic, since there never was anything particularly special about the number, and now there really is objectively no advantage. As we've said in the past, there's certainly nothing wrong with wanting to form a 14-player raid, but if you're turning away strong players or friends because you're convinced that your raid as a whole will have a harder time, you're making a mistake.


It's a Winter Veil Miracle!

That's for the update Mr. Hazzikostas
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
You can read the latest hotfix notes here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/11944164/542_Hotfixes_December_16-12_16_2013

Fun fact: The hotfix has actually been active since just before the weekend, but it didn't get caught in the prior round of hotfix notes. It's no surprise that it went largely unnoticed, since most all of the abilities with actual breakpoints going from 14->15 are things with very minor impact (Protectors' Shadow Word: Bane, Nazgrim's Bonecracker, Hisek's Multi-Shot, etc.). There are indeed a couple of more impactful breakpoints on Garrosh's Touch of Y'Shaarj and Sha of Pride's Imprison, but those both occur at raid sizes well above 14, and randomization isn't the correct solution to either.

The 14-player "magic number" is actually a fairly interesting social dynamic, since there never was anything particularly special about the number, and now there really is objectively no advantage. As we've said in the past, there's certainly nothing wrong with wanting to form a 14-player raid, but if you're turning away strong players or friends because you're convinced that your raid as a whole will have a harder time, you're making a mistake.


breakpoints still exist because of stuff like sha/garrosh/etc. if you bring enough people to trigger that third prison, or MC, then you are going to have a harder time, regardless of the fights before it.

people will always choose the path of least resistance, and will continue to do so. the main problem (and this is true in normal or heroic too) actually seems to be...healers. 3 healing a 14 raid seems pretty easy. say you jump to 16, and add a healer/dps. lets say the dps is so-so. well, each players dps requirement just went up a decent amount, the damage goes up too...but is it enough to warrant bringing another healer?

the problem becomes "how many healers can we drop, or make due with, so we can kill the boss?"

14 is just a "safe" number. I think runs can go fine with 10 or 25 people, but with 10 people you need each dps to be decent, 25 has too many potential people to carry and requires the most coordination (and the most mechanics to deal with, pugs arent great at those), 14 is a middle ground where you can work with 3 healers and dont need the coordination required in a 25, or the individual responsibility of a 10.

granted, 10/25 flex are easy if everyone knows what to do, but 14 seems to be the most pug friendly number. being close to 25 requires good coordination. being close to 10 puts more responsibibility on individuals. 14 gives you a decent sized group while you are essentially dealing with 10 mechanics, which is easier.

it's a flaw of the system since fights initially are tuned for either 10/25, and you dont NEED 14, but it does appear to be the path of least resistance. at least, when dealing with true pugs. less chances of additional mechanics = less opportunity for the raid to fail at them.

wtb option of 10/25 flex strict with guaranteed drops, btw :p
Edited by Sanctifìed on 12/17/2013 4:13 AM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
20175

breakpoints still exist because of stuff like sha/garrosh/etc. if you bring enough people to trigger that third prison, or MC, then you are going to have a harder time, regardless of the fights before it.

people will always choose the path of least resistance, and will continue to do so. the main problem (and this is true in normal or heroic too) actually seems to be...healers. 3 healing a 14 raid seems pretty easy. say you jump to 16, and add a healer/dps. lets say the dps is so-so. well, each players dps requirement just went up a decent amount, the damage goes up too...but is it enough to warrant bringing another healer?

the problem becomes "how many healers can we drop, or make due with, so we can kill the boss?"

14 is just a "safe" number. I think runs can go fine with 10 or 25 people, but with 10 people you need each dps to be decent, 25 has too many potential people to carry and requires the most coordination (and the most mechanics to deal with, pugs arent great at those), 14 is a middle ground where you can work with 3 healers and dont need the coordination required in a 25, or the individual responsibility of a 10.

granted, 10/25 flex are easy if everyone knows what to do, but 14 seems to be the most pug friendly number. being close to 25 requires good coordination. being close to 10 puts more responsibibility on individuals. 14 gives you a decent sized group while you are essentially dealing with 10 mechanics, which is easier.

it's a flaw of the system since fights initially are tuned for either 10/25, and you dont NEED 14, but it does appear to be the path of least resistance. at least, when dealing with true pugs. less chances of additional mechanics = less opportunity for the raid to fail at them.

wtb option of 10/25 flex strict with guaranteed drops, btw :p


Your reasoning here is inane. The whole point of flex is that it scales with the number of people in your raid, and I applaud this change because it now scales more fluidly than it did before. However, there was never any compelling reason to field a raid of a specific size (ie 14).

How smoothly your flex raid goes does not depend on the number of people in your raid, but how well those in your group are playing, much like everything else in WoW. Additionally, by adding players, your group's synergy increases - on the whole you'll have more players who can battle rez, interrupt, dispel, etc. Invite who's available for flex - if that means a big group or small group, that's fine, but don't full yourself into thinking there's some raid size that's best. There simply isn't, as has been stated countless times.

Regardless, I will continue to enjoy running my flex raids with however many players are currently available.
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100 Night Elf Druid
17885
A. Some people don't like large groups.

B. Some people have computers that start to lag over a certain number of players.

IOW - There are reasons that don't have to do with misconceptions.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
14480
My favorite retarded group restriction is "We need to bring 14 people because then we're guaranteed 3 pieces of loot"

The fact that idiots actually believe this garbage is frustrating, but then again, it's a great sign for me to leave the group since it's filled with idiots.

My usual response to these people is "Whoever told you that was trolling you because they think you're stupid. Don't believe them."
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100 Human Paladin
18005
Has any of you done Garrosh in flex?
Because there IS a breakpoint at 15.
When you add the 15th person you get 3 mc's instead of 2.


There are indeed a couple of more impactful breakpoints on Garrosh's Touch of Y'Shaarj and Sha of Pride's Imprison, but those both occur at raid sizes well above 14, and randomization isn't the correct solution to either.


No, I haven't but pretty sure Watcher knows how Garrosh mind control works...


Didn't you know? The Playerbase knows the game better than the people that make it.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
13720
breakpoints still exist because of stuff like sha/garrosh/etc. if you bring enough people to trigger that third prison, or MC, then you are going to have a harder time, regardless of the fights before it.


MCs and prisons are easy to deal with.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12265
A. Some people don't like large groups.

B. Some people have computers that start to lag over a certain number of players.

IOW - There are reasons that don't have to do with misconceptions.


That reasoning holds no logic at all. If A and B are the case then that still give no explanation to the 14. Why not 10, 11, 12, 13 or 15?

If A was the case, then 10 would be better than 14. Same thing if B were the case, 10 would be better.

Still leaves a lot of questions on the table about how people get totally fixated on 14. Mind you, it took a while to distill all the break point false theories down to the mythical 14. In the first weeks it was 15, 16, 18 and 22 from what I can remember. Not until near 2 months in did it all filter down to the 14 number.
Edited by Lifenite on 12/17/2013 10:06 AM PST
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90 Gnome Warrior
14965
Regardless of what Watcher just said, I would be reluctant to join a group that's worried about the number of players for flex.

If the leader is worried about that at all, it implies they think their players can't handle pretty basic stuff.
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90 Worgen Druid
13960
Now I have something to point to when people start spouting the inane 15 people = 25 mechanics nonsense.

Excellent.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
13720
Regardless of what Watcher just said, I would be reluctant to join a group that's worried about the number of players for flex.

If the leader is worried about that at all, it implies they think their players can't handle pretty basic stuff.


You would be very surprise how many people who will leave group over this this.

Now I have something to point to when people start spouting the inane 15 people = 25 mechanics nonsense.

Excellent.


YES! I know, finally something we can link to people who believe in the "if >14 raids the raid turns on 25 man mode mechanics."!
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