Being Forced to carry people

100 Night Elf Priest
11745


LFR isn't organized raiding.

It's time some people accepted that.


If you read a little more carefully hes referring to other modes as organized raiding hence his very first sentence.


Yes Kalorea, I realize that.

However they were trying to shift the discussion to things other than LFR - as a red herring.

I don't chase red herrings.
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90 Human Warrior
18950
If LFR and Flex shared a lockout, then people capable of doing flex wouldn't feel any need to do LFR...


Or I can just continue to choose to do or not do LFR as I please based on what I feel like doing.
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100 Human Paladin
9775
01/02/2014 01:20 PMPosted by Kalorea


Flex is about the same difficulty as LFR (it's a little harder), but brings organization, more geared players, and likely a higher degree of competence to the table. It should be faster than LFR given how things sit.


I'm trying to say it's ironic how the mode that's toted as being the most casual(LFR) isn't actually as casual as it appears when referring to time spent compared to alternatives.


I'm glad that more people are finally starting to understand this. I remember arguing this with raiders who were basically saying that you could go poop on your keyboard and win LFR when SoO came out, when more intelligent people were saying that it was, in fact, the most difficult LFR experience to date. And I still say that I have had a more difficult time with some bosses in SoO LFR than I ever had in ICC 10 man PuGs (before the nerfs and varian buff)
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100 Tauren Warrior
12790
so when (what gear Level) does Flexible raid open to?


Whatever the raid leader decides. Remember raiding is players coming together as a team to defeat the raid encounters. LFR is solo content.
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100 Human Paladin
15730
The problem is that people like you are overgeared for this content and shouldn't be here in the first place. You run it anyways and then complain when others don't have as much skill or experience as you. Instead of berating those players, please take the time to share your knowledge so they can learn from it. Not every player will get better with your guidance but some will and that's enough of a reason for me to make the effort in leading my groups.
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90 Human Warrior
18950
01/02/2014 01:33 PMPosted by Cowaman
so when (what gear Level) does Flexible raid open to?


Whatever the raid leader decides. Remember raiding is players coming together as a team to defeat the raid encounters. LFR is solo content.


There are minimum ilvl requirements to use the Raid Finder for Flex.

01/02/2014 01:33 PMPosted by Argeleb
in fact, the most difficult LFR experience to date.


Other than Gary surprisingly having an actual autowipe mechanic in LFR, I don't really think this sticks out as being any more difficult than last tier's LFR.
Edited by Nixxia on 1/2/2014 1:36 PM PST
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100 Goblin Priest
8655
01/02/2014 01:35 PMPosted by Nixxia


Whatever the raid leader decides. Remember raiding is players coming together as a team to defeat the raid encounters. LFR is solo content.


There are minimum ilvl requirements to use the Raid Finder for Flex.


This is true, but you can get in at lower ilvls if you don't use that tool. The only raid leaders who have to worry about Blizzard's mins are the ones using the Blizzard's tool.
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97 Gnome Mage
14450
If LFR and Flex shared a lockout, then people capable of doing flex wouldn't feel any need to do LFR...


If they feel the need that is their problem Let them take responsibility for their actions.... God you want Blizzard to wipe your rear for you yet people whine about the occasional carry /facepalm
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90 Worgen Warrior
12460
01/02/2014 01:17 PMPosted by Lore
At the same time, however, Raid Finder has been trying to fill in as a form of endgame progression for a lot of players.
lore i agree with a lot of the things you say beside the quote above. It is a means for some type of progression but it is not a guild experience. They most likely don't get excited when a wing is down. They just hit leave group and move on to the next que. As a guild you have 10 people or more and you raid as a group committed to achieving that wing making it more excited as a group, you never feel like you never want to play with that guild again. you cant wait to get out and try the next wing with them. your overall just excited for more as a guild.
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Community Manager
01/02/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Tristarae
This is true, but you can get in at lower ilvls if you don't use that tool. The only raid leaders who have to worry about Blizzard's mins are the ones using the Blizzard's tool.


It's not set in stone, but our current plan is to allow group leaders to set their own restrictions (such as ilevel) when using the Group Finder tool. We'd rather allow players to be upfront about such things than create a situation where an undergeared player is joining groups just to be immediately kicked as soon as the leader inspects them.

Edit for clarity: That also means that we're not planning on having any pre-set restrictions, though again, plans could change.
Edited by Lore on 1/2/2014 1:46 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
18950
This is true, but you can get in at lower ilvls if you don't use that tool. The only raid leaders who have to worry about Blizzard's mins are the ones using the Blizzard's tool.


Right, but all I'm saying is that if they're talking about making it easier to form groups cross realm and their tool uses a minimum ilvl, the question of what ilvl is required is relevant.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
0
It's not set in stone, but our current plan is to allow group leaders to set their own restrictions (such as ilevel) when using the Group Finder tool. We'd rather allow players to be upfront about such things than create a situation where an undergeared player is joining groups just to be immediately kicked as soon as the leader inspects them.


Will there be stronger moderation as well? It gets really annoying when a player obviously knows they can't be kicked. Because then they just troll it up and can't be removed.
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90 Human Warrior
15140
Maybe actually punish the people who dont participate during LFRs. Im all for LFR however I am not for people who dont participate while in raid. There needs to be a way to stop people being completely worthless, and getting rewarded for it.

01/02/2014 01:45 PMPosted by Rosenivy
It's not set in stone, but our current plan is to allow group leaders to set their own restrictions (such as ilevel) when using the Group Finder tool. We'd rather allow players to be upfront about such things than create a situation where an undergeared player is joining groups just to be immediately kicked as soon as the leader inspects them.


Will there be stronger moderation as well? It gets really annoying when a player obviously knows they can't be kicked. Because then they just troll it up and can't be removed.

Agreed 100%
Edited by Davetheslave on 1/2/2014 1:46 PM PST
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93 Human Paladin
17115
In summary: if you're looking for meaningful endgame raid experience, we'd like you to do Flex, and we want to make it easier for you to do that. If you'd just like to see new stuff (or even just take a laid-back approach to raiding), we'd like you to use Raid Finder, and we want to make sure that's fun for you.


Then maybe you need to nerf down LFR so it can be done by AFK players/bots, because I'm really tired of seeing half the raid below the level required for success, depending on the other half of the players to actually try in order to succeed, and thanks to your glorious limitations on the vote-kick system, we can't even get rid of the foot-draggers.

Maybe, like, reduce all damage to it can't possibly kill the players no matter what (or just give the players immortality, I.e. they take damage normally, but can't be reduced below 1 HP), and instead of an enrage, the boss just drops dead after 10 minutes.
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100 Human Paladin
9775
01/02/2014 01:35 PMPosted by Nixxia


Whatever the raid leader decides. Remember raiding is players coming together as a team to defeat the raid encounters. LFR is solo content.


There are minimum ilvl requirements to use the Raid Finder for Flex.

01/02/2014 01:33 PMPosted by Argeleb
in fact, the most difficult LFR experience to date.


Other than Gary surprisingly having an actual autowipe mechanic in LFR, I don't really think this sticks out as being any more difficult than last tier's LFR.


True, Durumu and Lei shen could be difficult in LFR depending on the group, but both ToT and SoO were not nearly as easy as Dragon soul
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100 Goblin Priest
8655
01/02/2014 01:42 PMPosted by Nixxia
This is true, but you can get in at lower ilvls if you don't use that tool. The only raid leaders who have to worry about Blizzard's mins are the ones using the Blizzard's tool.


Right, but all I'm saying is that if they're talking about making it easier to form groups cross realm and their tool uses a minimum ilvl, the question of what ilvl is required is relevant.


Relevant, but not absolute in the way it is for LFR. No matter what minimums are set for Flex in the Group Finder, I can still form a group without that tool. I'm just drawing a slight distinction, but otherwise agree with you.

If I want to grab my 550+ guildmates and carry my 496 sister through Flex; they can't really stop me.
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90 Human Warrior
18950
True, Durumu and Lei shen could be difficult in LFR depending on the group, but both ToT and SoO were not nearly as easy as Dragon soul


I can definitely agree with that.
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Community Manager
01/02/2014 01:45 PMPosted by Rosenivy
Will there be stronger moderation as well? It gets really annoying when a player obviously knows they can't be kicked. Because then they just troll it up and can't be removed.


Just like non-Group Finder parties, the leader (or anyone they've promoted to assistant) will be able to kick players they feel necessary at any time.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
That's where Flexible Mode came in. We've been absolutely thrilled to see how well Flex has worked out, not just technically but also in how much the community has embraced it. We originally designed the feature focused on smaller or less hardcore guilds who maybe couldn't guarantee a full roster every time they wanted to raid, but we've been pleased to see that it's also been working extremely well for pick up groups (particularly through third-party services such as OpenRaid or oQueue).


To be perfectly honest. The mechanic of flex (being able to alter the size of your raid) was a good idea. However, I do not think it is correct to base the success of flex based off of how often it is used. Same with lfr, the reason ppl are using flex is to gear them up enough for normals. you would see the same amount of uses of H dungeons if they were used in progression as well. So saying the community embraced it because it was a good idea overall is not really accurate. They embraced it because they had to in order to gear up.
Edited by Turmoyl on 1/2/2014 1:51 PM PST
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