WoW item squish and old content

90 Undead Rogue
8185
I think Ryg is saying "should not" because when it's first implemented they might need a bit of time to balance everything out. I trust them in this, and believe that we will be able to solo old stuff just as easily as we do now.
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60 Human Death Knight
900
01/02/2014 01:31 PMPosted by Rygarius
Our developers are mindful of the concerns about stat squish/crunch affecting the ability to solo older Raid content. Having said that, if you are currently able to solo an older Raid, the squish should not change your ability to do that.


Thank you for the 10,000th reminder... again. And sorry for the next 10,000 times you'll have to repeat it.

Love the squish, thank you very much. =)
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90 Undead Rogue
17350
Our developers are mindful of the concerns about stat squish/crunch affecting the ability to solo older Raid content. Having said that, if you are currently able to solo an older Raid, the squish should not change your ability to do that.


What about content you would have been able to do if the squish never happened like mop instances?
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86 Troll Hunter
5545
/sigh

Everything's getting squished.

I get squished.
You get squished.
Ragnaros gets squished
Everyone gets squished.

I have 500K health now, Ragnaros in MC has 1,000K.
I have 50K health in WoD, Ragnaros in MC has 100K.

E: That sounds ruder than I intended.


Dat terrible assumption.

More than likely you'll get some sort of 'overleveled' buff when you're in an old raid that will boost your health, damage, and healing done, akin to luck of the draw.


Are you implying the squish will only occur on WoD? Because bosses in dungeons right now are scaled to current. Why would they change old dungeons but not slap the changes on the raids as well, especially considering that they're vocally in support of soloing old raid content?

From what they said at Blizzon, the changes are to be sweeping so that your power now is relatively the same just smaller numbers. The idea is that if you do 10% per hit to Skadi in H UK, you'll still do 10% a hit after the crunch, or around that anyway.
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90 Worgen Mage
20380
Hopefully we'll have enough time to test this during a 6.0 systems patch PTR
Edited by Digerati on 1/2/2014 2:18 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11095


Dat terrible assumption.

More than likely you'll get some sort of 'overleveled' buff when you're in an old raid that will boost your health, damage, and healing done, akin to luck of the draw.


Are you implying the squish will only occur on WoD? Because bosses in dungeons right now are scaled to current. Why would they change old dungeons but not slap the changes on the raids as well, especially considering that they're vocally in support of soloing old raid content?

From what they said at Blizzon, the changes are to be sweeping so that your power now is relatively the same just smaller numbers. The idea is that if you do 10% per hit to Skadi in H UK, you'll still do 10% a hit after the crunch, or around that anyway.


For the millionth and 1st time.

I've tried to say this a million times, but if you take an exponential curve and turn it into a linear one with the tangent being somewhere near the bottom of the curve, your relative power decreases the further you are along the curve. There's no way for them to keep the power curve intact with how much they intend to squish, so they will be going with linear instead of exponential.

This means they'll likely give you a buff in old content, but this means that they essentially decide what gets to be solo'd, unless they figure out an algorithm that will appropriately place your power at the correct point on the curve along all levels.
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60 Human Death Knight
900
Y'all keep saying "should not". We're looking for "will not".


That may refer to situations that are imbalanced BECAUSE of the inflation - like broken 80ish toons with MoP BoE gear. If everything gets reduced, this ridiculous exploitation of scaling could prevent that type from soloing.

I believe they're saying that 90-100 should suffer very little change in this regard.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
Our developers are mindful of the concerns about stat squish/crunch affecting the ability to solo older Raid content. Having said that, if you are currently able to solo an older Raid, the squish should not change your ability to do that.


That's great! But I could have sworn solo raiding was frowned upon by Blizzard. Not sure they'll be too worried about keeping it a possibility. Hopefully though.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11825
You'll be stronger, relative to old dungeons, in WoD than you are now. When the pre-WoD patch hits, you will also gain power relative to the content, just less than you'll end up having at 100 in entry level gear.

It's bizarre to me to see people chomping at the bit to keep old dungeons the same relative difficulty. That has never, ever been a concern. When you reach 100, dungeons that were previously impossible to solo will be possible, and difficult solo jobs will be hilariously easy.
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90 Night Elf Druid
3225
From what they said at Blizzon, the changes are to be sweeping so that your power now is relatively the same just smaller numbers. The idea is that if you do 10% per hit to Skadi in H UK, you'll still do 10% a hit after the crunch, or around that anyway.


Nope, they never said this. They said they're mindful of the desire to solo old content, implying the exact opposite, that the crunch will linearize an exponential growth, and therefore without some sort of buff, you will not be able to solo old raids like you currently can.
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60 Human Death Knight
900
01/02/2014 02:31 PMPosted by Sentenza
Nope, they never said this.

^ this.

What they said was that your power will remain relative to your current level. "5 seconds to kill a gulp frog"...

People just decide that means whatever they want it to. /shrug
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11095
http://i.imgur.com/wQ48Cfo.jpg?1

This was the simplest I could break this down into.
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84 Draenei Priest
14800
My opinion: The squish is irrelevant unless you're an idiot or simply hate big numbers.

Clarification: If relative power is unchanged, than the squish has effectively changed nothing. The item squish will, in such a case, be purely cosmetic. Numbers are not "out of control" in MoP because the absolute numbers mean nothing.

I will most certainly be testing every single raid I know I can do now after the item squish; in the event I find some I cannot solo, I will be very strenuously complaining about this fact on the forums, as well as providing numbers.

I will be paying particular attention to cases that are currently extremely doable, but very difficult... such as me and my wife 2-manning 25M Aurayia's achivement to kill her without killing any of her sanctum sentries; as case that are already difficult, those will be the most easily lost in the event they fail to properly implement the item squish (and yes, if they fail to preserve all relative powers exactly as they are with literally no change in relative values, I will consider it a failure, since I am not in any way inconvenienced by big numbers and I am not so stupid as to think that "TEH BIG NUMBARS IZ SCARY").
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11095
01/02/2014 02:54 PMPosted by Umbrianna
Clarification: If relative power is unchanged, than the squish has effectively changed nothing. The item squish will, in such a case, be purely cosmetic. Numbers are not "out of control" in MoP because the absolute numbers mean nothing.


This is impossible, and http://i.imgur.com/wQ48Cfo.jpg?1 is why.
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84 Draenei Priest
14800
It's bizarre to me to see people chomping at the bit to keep old dungeons the same relative difficulty. That has never, ever been a concern. When you reach 100, dungeons that were previously impossible to solo will be possible, and difficult solo jobs will be hilariously easy.


Unless they implement raid buffs or take other extra measures, the item squish will automatically mean that our ability to solo old content will diminish (in other words, if all they did was the squish, that would make it harder to solo old content.) This is a natural result of turning an exponential curve into a linear curve (it's not exactly exponential, but close enough for the sake of discussion.) In fact, without such extra measures, it will likely be harder to solo content in WoD than it is now, due to the fact that they're replacing 4 expansions of exponential growth with 4 expansions of linear growth.

For me, that means that they're potentially removing the ability to things I and my wife enjoy doing (often more than any of the "real" content) for the sake of a cosmetic change
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84 Draenei Priest
14800
01/02/2014 02:58 PMPosted by Hyler
Clarification: If relative power is unchanged, than the squish has effectively changed nothing. The item squish will, in such a case, be purely cosmetic. Numbers are not "out of control" in MoP because the absolute numbers mean nothing.


This is impossible, and http://i.imgur.com/wQ48Cfo.jpg?1 is why.


First off, I am aware of that; that's why I said "if". My point was that the best case scenario effectively changes nothing.

Secondly, you already posted a link to that image :-P
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11095
First off, I am aware of that; that's why I said "if". My point was that the best case scenario effectively changes nothing.

Secondly, you already posted a link to that image :-P


Often you have to shove math down people's throats before they understand the point you're trying to get across. ;[ But it appears you already know!

But at the same time, there are out of instance things as well. For example, Pandaria's world bosses and also some of the cata rares will never be soloable for a very long time unless they nerf them.

Even the BC ones might suddenly cause some trouble.
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Game Designer
01/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Starling
That's great! But I could have sworn solo raiding was frowned upon by Blizzard. Not sure they'll be too worried about keeping it a possibility. Hopefully though.

There's nothing at all wrong with going back and doing legacy raids and other content. The achievement system, cosmetic rewards and titles, and most recently transmogrification all serve to reward that playstyle. There's also a lot to be said for just being able to revisit old locations, for the sake of nostalgia or getting to experience them for the first time, without needing to find a like-minded group. As Rygarius noted, we're committed to making sure that we don't disrupt players' ability to engage in that gameplay.

Without getting into the math, our goal is to make sure that if Kael'thas's Pyroblast does damage equal to 10% of your maximum health today, it will take off no more than 10% of your health post-squish. And if you kill Onyxia in 30 seconds today, you'll be able to kill Onyxia in 30 seconds post-squish.
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90 Human Paladin
16010
And what about old non-instanced content?
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90 Human Mage
13585
01/02/2014 04:16 PMPosted by Watcher
That's great! But I could have sworn solo raiding was frowned upon by Blizzard. Not sure they'll be too worried about keeping it a possibility. Hopefully though.

There's nothing at all wrong with going back and doing legacy raids and other content. The achievement system, cosmetic rewards and titles, and most recently transmogrification all serve to reward that playstyle. There's also a lot to be said for just being able to revisit old locations, for the sake of nostalgia or getting to experience them for the first time, without needing to find a like-minded group. As Rygarius noted, we're committed to making sure that we don't disrupt players' ability to engage in that gameplay.

Without getting into the math, our goal is to make sure that if Kael'thas's Pyroblast does damage equal to 10% of your maximum health today, it will take off no more than 10% of your health post-squish. And if you kill Onyxia in 30 seconds today, you'll be able to kill Onyxia in 30 seconds post-squish.


Sadly there is a portion of the player base who won't believe anything you've said and even when you've come through with what's been your stated goal those players will either find fault with how it's done or never acknowledge they were wrong while continuing to claim Blizzard is a horrible company that hates fun.

I've posted Blizzard quotes time after time supporting that Blizzard wants to make sure soloing won't go away just to be told you guys are liars or are failures and won't be able to. Generally someone will come along and pull out some sort of math as well to back up their view point while not being willing to admit they are using their math in a vacuum and really have no clue how it applies to your systems.
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