DK Tanking, Shattering Patch

90 Gnome Death Knight
6530
Regardless of melee attacks... if you still can't tank... roll frost dps, throw up blood presence, and spam HB, you'll be tanking then. You'll probably be better at it.


It's cute how narrow-minded and wrong your opinions of this situation are if you think that we wanted this RS change because we "can't tank."
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85 Undead Death Knight
5615
It isn't narrow minded. I have zero issues tanking and holding threat against other classes. Be better at your role or don't do it. If you can't tank without RS in this content, you're going to be screwed come Cata. Yes, I am on the beta, and yes, tanking is significantly more challenging. RS is helpful now, but in no way should it be so imperitive to you that "WTF BLIZZ NO RS FIX QQ" is needed.

It's cute how bad you are that this "situation" makes you think it isn't your fault you can't tank.
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90 Human Death Knight
8435
It isn't narrow minded. I have zero issues tanking and holding threat against other classes. Be better at your role or don't do it. If you can't tank without RS in this content, you're going to be screwed come Cata. Yes, I am on the beta, and yes, tanking is significantly more challenging. RS is helpful now, but in no way should it be so imperitive to you that "WTF BLIZZ NO RS FIX QQ" is needed.

It's cute how bad you are that this "situation" makes you think it isn't your fault you can't tank.


Nobody said you couldn't tank now. But being in a situation where you have no resources and no way to get resources as a tank is terrible design. I'm not sure why you're defending a situation that even Blizzard admitted was an issue.
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90 Tauren Warrior
10305
I understand that rune strike change was a needed one for some people.
But the argument when OTing that you are gimped by not being able to dodge is a false statement.
Any experienced tank can tell you that while OTing there are going to be times when you can't quite keep your threat above some of the dps,because of the lack of resources.
The way you fix this is coordinating with the main tank to work out a quick taunt exchange. Not too hard, you taunt then the mt taunts back, if they even need to. Sometimes we just keep it that way since it's no big deal usually who holds, as long as someone is.
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90 Human Death Knight
8435
I understand that rune strike change was a needed one for some people.
But the argument when OTing that you are gimped by not being able to dodge is a false statement.
Any experienced tank can tell you that while OTing there are going to be times when you can't quite keep your threat above some of the dps,because of the lack of resources.
The way you fix this is coordinating with the main tank to work out a quick taunt exchange. Not too hard, you taunt then the mt taunts back, if they even need to. Sometimes we just keep it that way since it's no big deal usually who holds, as long as someone is.


Except all the other tank classes can use all of their abilities (except Warriors and Revenge) without getting hit.

It's a quality of life issue. I could certainly tank before the change, but it makes it so that I don't have to resort to Death Coil to avoid wasting RP without converting it to threat. Again, Blizzard admitted it was an issue, why are you defending it?
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85 Undead Death Knight
5615
I'm not defending the situation really. I suppose in a way I guess I am but that isn't the intent. The point I'm making is this... If your inability to RS whenever you have 30RP is gimping your ability to tank, it isn't RS that needs changing. A) Your spec is wrong, B) You're not doing something you should be, C) The DPS in your group needs to wait until you actually attack.

Numerous people have said "this is fixed on the beta, will be fixed in Cata, just tough it out" and yet here we are. In a threat that isn't read by developers, how do I know? Because they've even said "post it in a developer/bug forum because those are the threads we read."

As to the not having resources, yes, there are times when your runes are a little behind your next ideal strike. Blizzard said this is a known issue and it's being fixed with the incoming patch and Improved Blood Presence for faster rune regen. However, you should NOT be rune capped for more than, at most, .5 seconds. Also, if you absolutely need to get resources, Empowered Rune Weapon is useful for that or convert a blood into a death rune.
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90 Tauren Warrior
10305

Except all the other tank classes can use all of their abilities (except Warriors and Revenge) without getting hit.

It's a quality of life issue. I could certainly tank before the change, but it makes it so that I don't have to resort to Death Coil to avoid wasting RP without converting it to threat. Again, Blizzard admitted it was an issue, why are you defending it?

Have you ever tried to OT as a warrior or druid before the changes to rage and certain talents?
It was near impossible to do because the only source of rage was your white swings.
Made it a bit hard. Before the changes I as well as many other said Dk tanks were THE BEST ot's in the game.
And I'm not defending anything. I was simply stating that not being able to rune strike while OTing doesn't mean anything when there are simple fixes to keeping high on the threat charts like I pointed out.
Edited by Unstabull on 11/23/2010 12:18 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
8435

Except all the other tank classes can use all of their abilities (except Warriors and Revenge) without getting hit.

It's a quality of life issue. I could certainly tank before the change, but it makes it so that I don't have to resort to Death Coil to avoid wasting RP without converting it to threat. Again, Blizzard admitted it was an issue, why are you defending it?

Have you ever tried to OT as a warrior or druid before the changes to rage and certain talents?
It was near impossible to do because the only source of rage was your white swings.
Made it a bit hard. Before the changes I as well as many other said Dk tanks were THE BEST ot's in the game.


Which has exactly what bearing on the way things are right now?

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90 Human Death Knight
8435
I'm not defending the situation really. I suppose in a way I guess I am but that isn't the intent. The point I'm making is this... If your inability to RS whenever you have 30RP is gimping your ability to tank, it isn't RS that needs changing. A) Your spec is wrong, B) You're not doing something you should be, C) The DPS in your group needs to wait until you actually attack.

Numerous people have said "this is fixed on the beta, will be fixed in Cata, just tough it out" and yet here we are. In a threat that isn't read by developers, how do I know? Because they've even said "post it in a developer/bug forum because those are the threads we read."

As to the not having resources, yes, there are times when your runes are a little behind your next ideal strike. Blizzard said this is a known issue and it's being fixed with the incoming patch and Improved Blood Presence for faster rune regen. However, you should NOT be rune capped for more than, at most, .5 seconds. Also, if you absolutely need to get resources, Empowered Rune Weapon is useful for that or convert a blood into a death rune.


Again, nobody is saying that they can't tank because of the Rune Strike proc thing. It's simply bad design to have to use Death Coil to avoid wasting RP, while at the same time waiting on rune cooldowns or being a slave to RNG.
Edited by Deathquoi on 11/23/2010 12:21 PM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
10305


Which has exactly what bearing on the way things are right now?

Just saying that tanks have been dealing with this same issue since the start of the game.
We all figured out ways to deal with shortcomings, and with the state of the game as it is right now a monkey could be trained to keep aggro by pressing button (not kidding in the slightest). Tanks have it easy these days.
And I was replying specifically to a previous poster who said that OTing was pretty much unthinkable because of rune strike on dodge and parry. Was giving him a way to do it without having to dodge or parry. Somehow you feel this was a direct attack at the rune strike change.
Edited by Unstabull on 11/23/2010 12:24 PM PST
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85 Undead Death Knight
5615
I'm not seeing how being an OT matters period. Hit Dark Command, be top of the threat list, if the other tank pulls off of you, he's retarded. Then you're the MT because you're tanking.

For example:

Being MT/OT on Festergut (spore fight right? I don't pay attention to it anymore)

Tank A starts off as MT. He gets to 8 stacks, his damage is increased by a ton, with vengeance up, he's hitting like a truck.

Tank B, the OT, taunts. Now on top of the aggro chart.

Tank A, if he is worth bringing, changes stance, presence, form, drops righteous fury, etc. BEFORE he starts doing damage.

This isn't because you're a DK OT and can't RS. It's because he's in a high threat generation "mode" and doing boosted damage. Unless he's ridiculously undergeared compared to you, there's no way that you'll hold aggro.


Tank skill > everything else really.
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90 Human Death Knight
8435


Which has exactly what bearing on the way things are right now?

Just saying that tanks have been dealing with this same issue since the start of the game.
We all figured out ways to deal with shortcomings, and with the state of the game as it is right now a monkey could be trained to keep aggro by pressing button (not kidding in the slightest). Tanks have it easy these days.
And I was replying specifically to a previous poster who said that OTing was pretty much unthinkable because of rune strike on dodge and parry. Was giving him a way to do it without having to dodge or parry. Somehow you feel this was a direct attack at the rune strike change.


"rune strike change was a needed one by some people"

I agree that tanking is easy. I've tanked ICC on 3 different characters. All of this is moot because the change is happening today and once the servers come up we will never have to speak of this matter again.
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90 Human Death Knight
8435
I'm not seeing how being an OT matters period. Hit Dark Command, be top of the threat list, if the other tank pulls off of you, he's retarded. Then you're the MT because you're tanking.

For example:

Being MT/OT on Festergut (spore fight right? I don't pay attention to it anymore)

Tank A starts off as MT. He gets to 8 stacks, his damage is increased by a ton, with vengeance up, he's hitting like a truck.

Tank B, the OT, taunts. Now on top of the aggro chart.

Tank A, if he is worth bringing, changes stance, presence, form, drops righteous fury, etc. BEFORE he starts doing damage.

This isn't because you're a DK OT and can't RS. It's because he's in a high threat generation "mode" and doing boosted damage. Unless he's ridiculously undergeared compared to you, there's no way that you'll hold aggro.


Tank skill > everything else really.


What about fights where you have to be second on threat, otherwise goofy #**! happens? What then?
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85 Undead Death Knight
5615
Like what fight? Being 2nd on threat accomplishes what? The 'lock who can't soul shatter or the mage who doesn't know how to press the "invisible" button doesn't die? Maybe on HM LDW, she goes to you without actual effort... Misdirect/tricks, or do it right and tank her near the other adds so the add dies to your splash damage and you essentially stay on her the whole time. It really isn't a challenge to stay 2nd...

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90 Tauren Warrior
10305


"rune strike change was a needed one by some people"

I agree that tanking is easy. I've tanked ICC on 3 different characters. All of this is moot because the change is happening today and once the servers come up we will never have to speak of this matter again.

Yes I did say that, because some people may need the extra threat it takes when MTing because of overgeared dps. The rest of the post was pointing out that OTing isn't dependent on the ability to use rune strike.
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90 Human Death Knight
8435
Like what fight? Being 2nd on threat accomplishes what? The 'lock who can't soul shatter or the mage who doesn't know how to press the "invisible" button doesn't die? Maybe on HM LDW, she goes to you without actual effort... Misdirect/tricks, or do it right and tank her near the other adds so the add dies to your splash damage and you essentially stay on her the whole time. It really isn't a challenge to stay 2nd...


Patchwerk required you to stay second otherwise rogues and other people died.

That's irrelevant content now, but the point is that making certain tanks do crappier threat when they're not being attacked is poor design. Which is why they fixed it.
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90 Tauren Warrior
10305


What about fights where you have to be second on threat, otherwise goofy #**! happens? What then?
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I think I answered that.
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90 Human Death Knight
8435


What about fights where you have to be second on threat, otherwise goofy #**! happens? What then?
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I think I answered that.


Again, my point is that it's poor design to have certain tanks doing worse threat when they're not being attacked. Tank switching and other workarounds are irrelevant. It doesn't matter because it's being fixed anyway.
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