Haste is the new king? Disc spams

90 Night Elf Priest
4610
Theory craft go!

Heal reduces weakened Soul by 2 seconds. Heal is a garbage heal as it stands now. At 85, who knows. It might be better but from everything I have read people don't like it aside from its EXTREME mana efficiency.

Now, lets say you are able to gear/gem/enchant and what have you for haste. Enough haste to bring down the cast time to around 1.5 seconds. It is at 2.5 seconds with divine fury. Gearing that much haste WILL bring down through put and crit but if you can get more and more shields on a target, will that matter?

Lets say you shield the tank for 10k (rng). 15 seconds WS.
Heal 1 second cast (borrowed time), 10.5 left on the soul after SoS.
Heal 1.5 second cast, 7 seconds left on WS after heal + SoS
Heal 1.5 second cast, 4.5s on WS
Heal 1.5 second cast, 1 second left on WS + GCD 1 second

Refresh shield.

You can remove 8 seconds from WS by spamming Heal alone. Throw in some penance and what have you and filler but the haste may help with our shield "throughput"

Has anyone tried this on the PTR? Or is Heal just not strong enough to be able to spam?

I am interested to see how this plays out since I have always loved haste more so than any other stat.
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84 Human Priest
6510
3 observations about this talent.

1) PWS is a much less important part of disc rotation at 85. It is less appealing for raid spam because players have relatively huge health pools and are comparatively rarely in danger of dying; it is also a lower portion of your single target healing.

So, forcibly casting heals merely to reduce Weakend Soul (WS) could be a total waste, even a loss of overall throughput. At best it is less exciting than you'd think through wotlk mindset.

2) If it were worth stacking haste just for this, we'd see "haste plateaus," which shadow say for mind flays in wotlk: for set, exact values of haste, you can fit another MF between mind blasts, or could fit another heal/GCD to squeeze out an earlier PW:S. This is poor design that developers do not like, because haste had extremely diminished value for every single point except the point that raise you from one plateau to the next.

Further, more haste can paradoxically reduce the number of PW:S you eek out; exactly reaching the plateau is good, but further haste gets your "rotation" done earlier and you might start another cast (WS is still up), delaying PW:S. Casting exactly 3 MFs then MB: good. Casting 3, having more time, casting an entire 4th MF before MB? very very bad.

This is too difficult for a typical player to theorycraft, and too difficult for even great players who understand the theory to execute. Disc doesn't even have the option of clipping MF casts, so it would suffer even more.

3) Clunky implementation--yet another priest ability where the effect has a delay after the cast, and it has very negative impact on gameplay this time (see: Body & Soul, Evangelism stacks for other examples). 6.5s left on WS means you should be able to fire a 2.5s Heal followed by PWS as your next GCD, but you can't. You'll have to sit around doing nothing and wait for the effect to trigger before you can PWS, or start another (Heal?) cast.

That means that there are a huge number of scenarios where the talent essentially has no impact at all, despite spamming Heal on a WS target, because you end up casting Heal for 5s (eg) on someone who had 5s or less on WS anyway, or not casting at all (which is fine; throughput is no longer king but if you can afford to cast nothing, then spamming to get more PW:S is not very appealing either).

It also means you're encouraged to cast Heal immediately after PW:S, then fill with instant/GCDs while waiting for the triggered effects or last seconds of PW:S; casting Heal "late" in that rotation means the proc trips late. But Heal is least valuable in the GCDs immediately following PWS, because chances are at their highest that incoming damage gets absorbed instead. . .


Overall: This will probably be a nice talent to have when it just "happens" passively, and will be a way for multiple disc priests to finally "stack" in a raid instead of only being able to step on eachother's WS debuffs. I am not expecting it to ever be worth gearing or casting specifically for... though theorycrafting could prove me wrong! IMO, the reduced importance of PWS, the "haste plateau" effect, and the clunky proc implementation mean this talent will be "good" (at best) but never great.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10090
Well the good news is that haste unifies the gear for both spec holy and disc.
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84 Human Priest
6510
As an aside, your numbers are also poorly calculated (demonstrating my point about the difficulty here). You ignore the delayed proc, but also:

To bring heal down to a 1.5s cast, you need 67% haste, which we will not see in Cataclysm, ever: 50% is the highest any player would ever want since it is the soft cap for all 1.5s and instant casts, and 50% was difficult to obtain in WotLK, only possible thanks to multiple extra, unintended tiers of gear.

Borrowed Time would need to provide almost 83% haste to have the effect you claim it does. BT is instead only 14%.

You ignore the GCD on your first PWS cast. It would be 0.9s with your ridiculous haste, but the GCD is capped at at least 1s long, so 1s.

And finally, you have Strength of Soul removing the wrong amount of time from WS. I'm not sure how much you think it removes, because it doesn't seem to be a consistent value between your cast examples.
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85 Human Priest
7795
Shield is more or less downright bad at 85, so aside from rapture I'm not sure why you'd even want to cast it more.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
4400
Shield is more or less downright bad at 85, so aside from rapture I'm not sure why you'd even want to cast it more.


This. Exactly this.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
"Heal" is worthless for Disc. You're always going to be better off casting Smite for Atonement, Renew, or GHeal. "Heal" also grows progressively more worthless for everyone the higher up the gear chain you get. It's a starter ability and a situational tool for proccing secondary talent effects, nothing more.

PW:S is an instant-cast 15k heal that you use just before you know damage will happen. Taken in the context of being used proactively and intelligently for incoming damage and not just wasted for the sake of having one on everyone, it's one of the best heals in the game.

For all intents and purposes WS is a buff in Cata, to be used accordingly.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
4400
PW:S is an instant-cast 15k heal that you use just before you know damage will happen. Taken in the context of being used proactively and intelligently for incoming damage and not just wasted for the sake of having one on everyone, it's one of the best heals in the game.


Look at shields' mana cost.

Just use flash heal, it can crit! =D
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
Gearing that much haste WILL bring down through put and crit but if you can get more and more shields on a target, will that matter?

Let's not forget that Haste doesn't directly help Power Word: Shield in the slightest. So you aren't quite getting something for nothing. =)
Edited by Believe on 11/23/2010 7:53 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
4610
I apologize for the numbers. I was just throwing the idea out there for debate. I saw that SoS is actually 4 seconds and not 2 and did not account for the refresh on the WS effect (which shouldnt matter due to a cast time on a heal spell)

I chose not to take attonment/evangel/archangel for this patch simply because the returns on Arch (which is why I took it) are horrid.

Yes, smite spamming was fun in 5 mans but I found it just a gimmick. I was never able to do it in a 10 man setting or when !%#! hit the fan in an HoR.

Is shield really that useless at 85? That is the only reason why I like disc. I love shield spam and being the "prevention" king. I like to predict and react thus the faster heals and instant "heals".

Is disc at 85 during cata that different? My priest is 6 years old now...don't want to let him go.
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85 Undead Priest
6005
Arch - Horrid
Heal - Meh

I'd go with heal simply because I find it more useful... I'd rather heal a target (which I choose) and lower weakened soul on them rather than Smite and randomly heal a nearby melee .. haste def def def.

BTW this was more of a post to see if my perma ban was lifted with the new forums D:
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85 Undead Priest
6005
Sweet
Now I can get back to trolololling
damn timer for posting
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YES!
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90 Tauren Shaman
12955
On a side note:

Haste affects smite time, should we have a haste aproxximate for the smite spec? I personally love the smite spec, i use attonement and archangel all the time as it increases both damage done and healing done at the same time as giving me mana back. I am having absolutely no mana issues at 80 in LK fights with low gear and still pull damn good HPS/APS.(for my gear, 8-12k) There are times i have to use a flash heal or two, yes, but i can almost always settle back into my 6-10k smite heals with PW:S and pennance. Is this going to change soooooo much as I level that I want to use this ""heal"" spec?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
PW:S is an instant-cast 15k heal that you use just before you know damage will happen. Taken in the context of being used proactively and intelligently for incoming damage and not just wasted for the sake of having one on everyone, it's one of the best heals in the game.


Look at shields' mana cost.

Just use flash heal, it can crit! =D


PW:S with Mental Agility and Inner Will = 2934 mana @ 85.
FH has no talents, glyphs or spells that reduce its mana cost = 5765 mana @ 85.

As for the original point, Haste will have breakpoints to where it's useful, most likely around the number of tics you want from Renew. The rest is subject to your healing style, since crit, haste and mastery all seem about equally valuable, weighted more by your build, team composition, and healing method than one overall "right way" of doing things.
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90 Goblin Warlock
11170
I agree that Heal is pretty useless and to make it "useful" it would need to be changed to a shorter cast time but heal for a lot less with same mana cost. Flash Heal has been the Rejuvenation of Restoration Druids for priests.

Smite Archangel mechanic is simply horrible, I love to use Holy Fire and this forces you to SMITE SPAM. It's not a good mechanic because I'd like to do healing not dps unless I'm doing PvP.

Overall thoughts on Heal will be that it will be extensively used for PvP if we stack haste at the cost of mana regeneration because Power Word: Shield can be spellstolen, purged, Devour Magic, dispelled, or shield slammed by Protection warriors. So I guess they balance it by priests spamming Heal in PvP so they can reshield faster.

Priests usually stack Haste for PvP because it also makes Mana Burn Faster. Remember last PvP season? It usually consisted on Mana Burn battles with healers on low mana, mages, shadow priests, warlock Succubus, other Discipline priests, even Elemental shamans to an extent.
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85 Undead Priest
4005
I'm stacking int/haste = more int, more spellpower, faster smiting, more renew ticks, stronger shields :D
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11170
It takes crazy amounts of haste which will never exist as high as in WOTLK. Having that in mind for Cataclysm stacking haste probably will still be helpful but not great. The renew caps for extra ticks are 12.5%, 37.5%, 62.5%, 87.5% TOTAL Haste. I think I only reach 1 extra tick but I can reforge to get closer to 37.5%.

I will be stacking Intellect/Spirit for PvE maybe mastery for Holy as it will save you mana if it the HoT effect from Priest Holy Mastery becomes more significant at 85. For PvP who knows, I'm sure they will nerf Mana Burn.

Yes in WOTLK haste was king but in Cataclysm, won't know till we get there.
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