ROCKET BOOTS, Engineering.

85 Draenei Shaman
5265
I'm sad to lose the MC. It was on a 10 minute cooldown so not overpowered. I'm sticking with the boosts for now though. We had a rogue whose boosts failed in a raid yesterday killing him on one of those fights where no-one is supposed to die and we wiped.

In rated bgs I'll have instant ghost wolf but it doesn't have the burst of the boosts. I'm not swapping engineering but if I did it would be to alchemy.

At least I'll be able to wear goggles and look awesome while being killed.
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80 Blood Elf Priest
6185
Wow i totally can't believe they nerf'd what was by far and away the best pve and pvp profession just like they didn't nerf jewelcrafting when it had that distinction. If you don't think having your cape sp enchant, rocket boots with crit and the haste glove enchant wasn't completely out of line with every other profession pve wise then your insane.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
9510
Let me requote what I said, again:

In order to get these self-only abilities, a player has to get, train, and level one of, if not the, most draining professions without as much income to offset it.


I am saying several things that you seem to be missing:
1) unlike Enchanting, these abilities are for the engineer only.
2) unlike Ench/Inscrip, the player has to invest a lot of time and materials just to gain access to them.
3) unlike BS/JC/Ench/Alch, there aren't very many stable opportunities to make money off of Engineering. (as this would offset the loss in engineering-only abilities gained)

Your comparison with Enchanting is only valid if enchanters had self-only abilities that were situational, had long cooldowns, and stacked with their normal (non-self-only) enchantments.

Getting outplayed is perfectly acceptable when the other player is prepared to deal with you - better gear, knows how their class/spec/racials can deal with your class.

Getting outplayed because you picked a "gimped" class was always dealt with by re-balancing the classes.


So lvling engineering to 450 should inherently give you better benefits than lvling any other profession to 450? Just because perceived bias towards "Engineering sucks at making gold" or "It's harder to lvl"

Yea, I don't think that sounds right, if you want a 450 profession, you just put gold into it, the rest hardly matters, all professions take about 2k from mats from the AH to get to 450, if it costs more, you just don't know how to get a deal, if you find it cheaper, good for you.

If engineering was just simply better, everyone would be engineer, the costs hardly matters, if you're dedicated, it doesn't matter, you pick what's best.

Again, just getting 450 engineering shouldn't entitle you to be better than anyone else with a 450 profession, they should be equal.
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16 Gnome Warlock
0
Wow i totally can't believe they nerf'd what was by far and away the best pve and pvp profession just like they didn't nerf jewelcrafting when it had that distinction. If you don't think having your cape sp enchant, rocket boots with crit and the haste glove enchant wasn't completely out of line with every other profession pve wise then your insane.


The problem isn't that they nerfed it. The problem is that they overnerfed it to the point that it's not even worth having at all. It's not even at the level of the other professions.

The enchants/buffs/etc should measure out to be the same as all the other professions. The fact that we get jeeves, wormholes, rocket boots, etc. is the tradeoff we get for not being able to make any money at the profession.

But now we can't make any money, the fun stuff was toned down a ton and to top it off, the pve enchants are not as good as other professions (others can address pvp, i dont care much for it).

I would like to know what the long term plans for these cogwheels are, what they are, how we get/make them, etc. I would love some reassurance from Blizzard that Engineering is a competitive choice for raiders and that they intend for it to remain that way throughout the expansion. If not, I can retrain something else to 450 in the next two weeks.

Again, just getting 450 engineering shouldn't entitle you to be better than anyone else with a 450 profession, they should be equal.


Agree totally. Do you feel they're equal now?
Edited by Couchvortex on 11/24/2010 3:33 PM PST
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16 Gnome Warlock
0
I would like to know what the long term plans for these cogwheels are, what they are, how we get/make them, etc.


The plans for the cogwheels are to put on the goggles we make. If you notice they dont actually have the stats associated with headpieces of that ilvl. Therefore the cogs are supposed to be our 2 stat boosts. So we have a choice of what stats to lvl to 85 with and then their useless.

Of course when you make items now there is a chance to proc a superior higher ilvl item of the same type so some may have a little longer lasting helm than others.


So every single tier I'm supposed to use 4 pc and the new tier's engineering helm pattern (assuming there even will be more)? Because if I don't, the profession is worthless from that standpoint, no? And if there will only be entry level goggles, then the profession is good for three weeks and that's it.

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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8040
So lvling engineering to 450 should inherently give you better benefits than lvling any other profession to 450? Just because perceived bias towards "Engineering sucks at making gold" or "It's harder to lvl"


Yes, I have a bias towards... logic. Tell me a good reason why a lack of utility should be paired with a higher inaccessibility, and I'll drop this argument.


Yea, I don't think that sounds right, if you want a 450 profession, you just put gold into it, the rest hardly matters, all professions take about 2k from mats from the AH to get to 450, if it costs more, you just don't know how to get a deal, if you find it cheaper, good for you.


I want to get as much out of Engineering as I put into it as compared to the output of other professions to the effort and time that are put into them. This isn't just gold. In fact, if you bought all the materials to level crafting professions, I guarantee you that Engineering would be the most expensive.

However, nice straw man and insult where they aren't needed.


If engineering was just simply better, everyone would be engineer, the costs hardly matters, if you're dedicated, it doesn't matter, you pick what's best.


This already happens, with Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting. Blizzard already stated they don't want one or two professions to be required due to their benefits. By taking away benefits and utility to Engineering, they are making it less useful and nearly required that it isn't chosen.


Again, just getting 450 engineering shouldn't entitle you to be better than anyone else with a 450 profession, they should be equal.


Again, my point is that investing time and energy to make yourself more prepared is what makes you better. This includes PvE gear for PvP, Arena items for BGs, research into what you can do to counter various classes and specs, and using other professions to give you an edge in PvP.
Edited by Ragtime on 11/24/2010 4:13 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
9510
No, what you are saying is "Engineering doesn't makes as much gold as other professions, and is "more expensive"(hint: it isn't) to lvl, hence it should be the best profession ever" This is wrong, it should be equal.

And as for the other person, yes it is equal now, except LW, LW is by FAR the best profession for any class now, and engineering is the best by far for any caster.

LW enchant is a primary (str/agi/int/stam) stat, not a secondary(crit/hit/haste/dodge/etc) stat standard bracer enchant, it's WAY better than any other choice.

Engineering int on use effect for gloves is +96 int averaged, it's way better than other professions at just +80(+81 for JC) int, and this is not counting other effects, like nitro boots, etc.

So the best professions are LW and Engineering, for casters by far, engineering is garbage for everyone else though.

So as you can see, the change to belt tinkers is fine. In fact, engineering glove enchant should be nerfed so it's on parity with other professions at +80 int.

Sources: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=82175 <- engineering glove enchant.
http://www.wowhead.com/search?q=Draconic+Embossment <- LW bracer enchants.
http://www.wowhead.com/spells=11.333?filter=sl=9;cr=16;crs=4;crv=0 <- bracers standard enchants.

Edit:
Again, my point is that investing time and energy to make yourself more prepared is what makes you better.


So if I prepare myself with lvling BS or Enchanting or JC to 450, and you prepare yourself by lvling Engineering to 450, you should be better? Why? I prepared myself as well as you did, picked a profession and got it to 450. You shouldn't be better just because you happened to pick Engineering.
Edited by Zyrus on 11/24/2010 5:16 PM PST
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84 Human Priest
4500
Rocket boots to me were the defining trait of an engineer. It's kind of lame that they've dumbed down every professions bonuses to some passive stat increases. Bring back rocket boots imo.
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87 Dwarf Priest
13635
This change was so utterly disappointing that I assumed it was a bug.

Part of me still does.
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WoW community sure likes to QQ a lot.

You lost your frag belt / MC tinker because you have to replace w/ Rocket Boosts on your belt. Oh-em-gee, it costs gold to make!!! Blizzard hath foresaken us lowly engineers in spite of our begging, pleading and ranting.

The only drawback is the limitations for usage in PvP, and engineering was head & shoulders above other professions in that regard.

I'm over it.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8040
No, what you are saying is "Engineering doesn't makes as much gold as other professions, and is "more expensive"(hint: it isn't) to lvl, hence it should be the best profession ever" This is wrong, it should be equal.


You are misinterpreting what I wrote.

Please cite where you found for certain that Engineering requires the same amount of materials as Enchanting, Tailoring, and Alchemy. Enchanting and Tailoring do not require materials from another profession in order to level. The general consensus on many crafting guides is that Engineering is among the worst professions to level.

Also, no, Engineering simply doesn't make as much money as other crafting professions.


Engineering int on use effect for gloves is +96 int averaged, it's way better than other professions at just +80(+81 for JC) int, and this is not counting other effects, like nitro boots, etc.

Sources: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=82175 <- engineering glove enchant.

http://www.wowhead.com/search?q=Draconic+Embossment <- LW bracer enchants.

http://www.wowhead.com/spells=11.333?filter=sl=9;cr=16;crs=4;crv=0 <- bracers standard enchants.


These item enhancements have not been implemented yet. There has been no theorycrafting done on the dps/healing/survivability they grant. Why are you including these as proof?

Why aren't you using the in-game tinkerings like the Hyperspeed Accelerators, that give haste on a cooldown?
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=54999
These have been tested, multiple times and in multiple patches, to be less effective for healing and dps than other item enhancements of the equivalent level.

Despite their higher increase over static enchantments, the buff they provide is lower overall due to it being an activated ability with a cooldown, during which the stat increase is not available.


So if I prepare myself with lvling BS or Enchanting or JC to 450, and you prepare yourself by lvling Engineering to 450, you should be better? Why?


I did not say that.

I said that anyone sufficiently prepared should not be on the same level as someone who is not, especially through PvP. I put all professions on the same level, because they all give advantages over people who do not have any professions.


Edit: In regards to Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting, please refer back to where I said that it was the combination of those two that made them superior to other professions.

Blizzard has stated they don't want this to happen. They don't want a clear advantage in taking one or two specific professions in order to be competitive.
Edited by Ragtime on 11/24/2010 5:59 PM PST
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80 Night Elf Druid
5710
No, what you are saying is "Engineering doesn't makes as much gold as other professions, and is "more expensive"(hint: it isn't) to lvl, hence it should be the best profession ever" This is wrong, it should be equal.


I'll tell you what, if Blizzard gives us money-making recipes throughout the expansion, like other professions (or even gives us updated helms every tier), I'll accept this nerf in good grace., even though it goes against what most engineers prefer (toys>money).
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
9510
These item enhancements have not been implemented yet. There has been no theorycrafting done on the dps/healing/survivability they grant. Why are you including these as proof?

Why aren'tyou using the in-game tinkerings like the Hyperspeed Accelerators, that give haste on a cooldown?


We're in Cata subset now, lvl 80 doesn't matters, stop thinking about lvl 80, compare only the important stuff, lvl 85 stuff.

And you don't need to theorycraft to know that 130 str/agi/int is WAY better than 65 haste/crit. It's a bigger gain than just getting 80 str/agi/int like all the other professions. So yes LW is the best profession right now, by quite a lot for Cata.

As for the cooldown, it's on the comments there, in fact due to it being a cd it is much better than a standard +stats, since you can line it up with other cds to get a far better effect.

So not only it's +96 int averaged if you just use it on cd, unlike +80 int from other professions (besides LW) it is a cd that can be lined up with other cds for even greater effect. So again, engineering is the best profession for a caster in Cata. And this is not including whatever belt enchant.

What you're missing is that engineering is designed for Cata now, at one belt enchant, a tinker + one Glove enchant, one for caster, one for tank and one for melee dps.

In other words, engineering's fine if not overpowered for casters.

Edit: Also, you're actually wrong, if you do read the comments for the lvl 80 engineering glove enchant, it's equivalent to 68 haste rating, it's better than any other glove enchant, making it the best profession for pve dps for certain classes even.
Edited by Zyrus on 11/24/2010 6:04 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8040
We're in Cata subset now, lvl 80 doesn't matters, stop thinking about lvl 80, compare only the important stuff, lvl 85 stuff.


Those tinkerings aren't included in the game yet. There is no guarantee that they will not change, as has happened before. There aren't any updated versions of tinkerings like the Parachute Cloak and the Nitro Boosts yet, even.

I am using level 80 items because this is the only model available at the moment that is completely available and has been tested and tweaked by Blizzard. This model is all of the items, and how all of them interact with each other and all of the content.

Stop using items that aren't in the game and haven't been balanced around content that hasn't been released yet. We don't know what will be changed.


So yes LW is the best profession right now, by quite a lot for Cata.


So how is this relevant in a topic on removing self-only Engineering abilities?


So not only it's +96 int averaged if you just use it on cd, unlike +80 int from other professions (besides LW) it is a cd that can be lined up with other cds for even greater effect.


Why are you comparing an enhancement that is available for everyone to one that is a profession-only perk?

Are you the same person who would complain that only Enchanters can enchant their rings? Did you complain when Inscriptionists got arcanums that were better than everyone else's? Is it unfair that only Blacksmiths can add two more gem slots than other professions to their gear?



Why are you ignoring that Engineering makes less money than other crafting professions?

Why are you ignoring that it has more applications in PvE, and yet they're changing it for PvP reasons?

Why are you ignoring that by reducing the amount of applicable self-only perks, Blizzard is making Engineering a less desirable profession, which they outright stated they don't want to happen?
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
9510

So not only it's +96 int averaged if you just use it on cd, unlike +80 int from other professions (besides LW) it is a cd that can be lined up with other cds for even greater effect.


Why are you comparing an enhancement that is available for everyone to one that is a profession-only perk?


I'm actually comparing profession to profession, their unique perks.

Enchanting gets ring enchants for +80 primary stat total.
BS gets 2 extra gem slots, for +80 any stat.
Alchemy gets mixology, for +80 stat dependant on flask
JC gets 3 gems at +27 stat each gem, x3 for +81 any stat.
Engineering gets that glove enchant, for +96 int averaged, if used it on cd, not counting other stuff + the fact that it can be used with other cds for a WAY bigger effect.

Engineering is by far the best profession for casters already, this has to be nerfed.


Why are you ignoring that Engineering makes less money than other crafting professions?


Not relevant, money shouldn't even matter, if you want to make gold you don't even need a profession, if you know how to use the AH, I'd know, I was gold capped before 4.0.1.


Why are you ignoring that it has more applications in PvE, and yet they're changing it for PvP reasons?


It's being changed for both, for parity with other professions + one tinker, glove for stats, belt slot for tinker, it's obvious their intent is that you can't have 3 tinkers, but only one at any given time.


Why are you ignoring that by reducing the amount of applicable self-only perks, Blizzard is making Engineering a less desirable profession, which they outright stated they don't want to happen?


It isn't the least desirable, it's in fact the most desirable and the best profession for any caster, you're wrong here.

Engineering is the best profession for Cata for casters, it's the most desirable profession for any caster, not being an engineer in Cata as a caster is gimping yourself. As I said, in fact engineering glove enchant should be further nerfed. Because it isn't only the best perk, there's also the tinker from the belt.

Don't forget that this glove enchant stacks with your regular glove enchant, it doesn't overwrites it, so it is indeed the full +96 int averaged, or 480 for 12 secs every 60 secs without giving up anything.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8040
Engineering gets that glove enchant, for +96 int averaged, if used it on cd, not counting other stuff + the fact that it can be used with other cds for a WAY bigger effect.


That is ignoring that all those other profession-only enhancements can also be used with those CDs as well, and the higher average stat is intended because you don't have that stat increase for when it's cooling.

So that "bigger effect"? Is if you were starting from having no item enhancement at all for that slot.

You are also ignoring the fact that since these are not in the game, all these stats are able to be changed before they are released.


Not relevant, money shouldn't even matter, if you want to make gold you don't even need a profession, if you know how to use the AH, I'd know, I was gold capped before 4.0.1.


Entirely relevant. If Engineers had the ability to make items that everyone wanted, multiple times, on more than one of their characters (BS, JC, Ench, Alch, Tail), then I would tolerate this change, and so would many other people. I would tolerate effectively removing abilities that were a big reason why I chose this profession.


It's being changed for both, for parity with other professions + one tinker, glove for stats, belt slot for tinker, it's obvious their intent is that you can't have 3 tinkers, but only one at any given time.


And yet the only things they changed were abilities which were already not allowed in certain PvP situations, aside from the Parachutes and Hand Rockets, and those abilities had extremely long cooldowns.


It isn't the least desirable, it's in fact the most desirable and the best profession for any caster, you're wrong here.


Please show me where you found information comparing the confirmed, player-tested complete stat bonuses of all professions when compared not only to each other, but in the setting of level-appropriate gear and environments.

That is what was done with in-game item enhancements, and that is what I am basing my arguments on.

Until you know this, and can show me this, whether or not any profession in the future is better is all conjecture and hypothesis, and cannot be depended on. Let me remind you, these stats are not final, because the pieces are not in the game.


Don't forget that this glove enchant stacks with your regular glove enchant, it doesn't overwrites it, so it is indeed the full +96 int averaged, or 480 for 12 secs every 60 secs without giving up anything.


Incorrect. As stated in the official Patch Notes for 4.0.3a, tinkerings which grant stat increases do not stack with static enchantments.
Edited by Ragtime on 11/24/2010 8:52 PM PST
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25 Draenei Shaman
240
The changes are pretty silly. They were really unnecessary and I don't see the logic behind them. The boots will not be allowed in real competitive play (arenas/rated BGs) anyway. Guess it's time to dump engineering folks. Wheres the next PvP bandwagon?
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85 Goblin Hunter
5765
It was overpowered before.
The stats bonuses on the tinkers was just a bug as they were changing the profession to let the tinkers to be used with normal enchants.
But i think it was the wrong way to do it. And im not talking about they should revert it.
What i think they should do is put a cd on all abillitys so u cant use them all in a short amount of time. Lets say, besides the parachute, all the tinkers get a 1 min or 2 min shared cd. What i mostly don like its that i dont have the options i had before. This way it gets almot like it is right now. Lets say i use the boots now. In 2 min i may be able to use another tinker, or maybe wait 3 to use the boots again. The option is the problem. If the boots istill op maybe reduce it in 1 sec. Just dont take the options that we engineers love so much.
Edited by Dhias on 11/25/2010 12:09 AM PST
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