Can we get a pvp dummy?

If you guys are doing as much number tinkering as you claim I don't know why you wouldn't take this opportunity to rethink pvp power altogether

I'm all for differentiating gear but I find it pretty silly that a stat called "pvp power" exists at all.
Edited by Phizz on 1/13/2014 2:50 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
15855
01/13/2014 11:47 AMPosted by Lore

Sounds like a good goal but probably to hard of goal to hit.


It's definitely tough, but we think we can at least get things a lot closer than they currently are.


Only issue I see here is people rolling into raids with PvP gear and not working towards anything else as PvP gear is easier to attain.
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90 Troll Priest
5165
01/13/2014 11:47 AMPosted by Lore

Sounds like a good goal but probably to hard of goal to hit.


It's definitely tough, but we think we can at least get things a lot closer than they currently are.


I really hope you guys manage this. Playing either this spriest or my ww monk in pvp and seeing my heals drop down into nothingness is really hard to adapt to.
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Community Manager
If you guys are doing as much number tinkering as you claim I don't know why you wouldn't take this opportunity to rethink pvp power altogether

I'm all for differentiating gear but I find it pretty silly that a stat called "pvp power" exists at all.


We are planning to revisit PvP Power in Warlords. Our current thinking is that, instead of a flat percentage increase to your normal damage/healing in PvP (as it is currently), it'll be a bonus amount of your spec's primary stat (Strength, Agility, or Intellect).

Here's an example with some completely made-up numbers: lets say a piece of gear has 80 Strength and 30 PvP Power on it. In a PvP environment, that would total out to be 110 Strength. Meanwhile, an equivalent piece of PvE gear might only have 100 Strength on it. Again, those numbers are purely hypothetical, but hopefully it illustrates the idea.

That change accomplishes a couple of things for us. First, it lets us keep PvP and PvE item levels closer together, while still ensuring that PvP gear remains best for PvP and vice versa. It also "demystifies" PvP Power quite a bit; a percentage-based increase can be hard to really quantify without a lot of math, but raw stats are much easier to understand.

As to the name, we can talk about it, but part of why we chose the term "PvP Power" to begin with was that it makes it extremely obvious that the stat only functions inside PvP environments. We want to be sure that players who purchase PvP gear know that it's going to be less effective in PvE situations. I'll bring it up, though :)
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90 Undead Warrior
15270
Sushytime:
Knowing the pve geared players can flat demolish pvp geared players in wpvp


PVP armor set bonus make up for 90-100K extra health
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90 Orc Shaman
15060
I thought that was what AFKers were good for...

...now if only Blizzard would let us use AFKers in raids/dungeons for dps dummies.

Good idea OP!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10175
This thread is basically an almanac for people who don't actually think blizzard hates pvpers. Thanks.
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88 Human Rogue
16050
Here's an example with some completely made-up numbers: lets say a piece of gear has 80 Strength and 30 PvP Power on it. In a PvP environment, that would total out to be 110 Strength. Meanwhile, an equivalent piece of PvE gear might only have 100 Strength on it. Again, those numbers are purely hypothetical, but hopefully it illustrates the idea.


With this example pvp gear is the best but it looks like pve gear isn't that much worse. Would this new system make pve gear for pvp better than it is now?

This example looks like

pvp gear in pvp 100% dmg/healing
pve gear in pvp 90% dmg/healing

pve gear in pve 100% dmg/healing
pvp gear in pve 80% dmg/healing

Is this the goal or still too many missing pieces on this.
Edited by Whoknowz on 1/13/2014 3:46 PM PST
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Community Manager
This example looks like

pvp gear in pvp 100% dmg/healing
pve gear in pvp 90% dmg/healing

pve gear in pve 100% dmg/healing
pvp gear in pve 80% dmg/healing

Is this the goal or still to many missing pieces on this.


Completely made-up example, I wouldn't read into the actual numbers that much.
Edited by Lore on 1/13/2014 3:57 PM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
5855
Hey Lore, I just wanted to say I love the new direction you guys have been headed in pvp, the hotfixes and small changes really are fantastic. Too bad you're still getting some flack for it but great work.
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90 Orc Warrior
5220
Completely made-up example, I wouldn't read into the actual numbers that much. Could just as easily end up being the same for both, or even the other way around.


Are you guys planning on making more abilities function differently in pvp and pve environments? (Ie more of the Colossus Smash treatment?)

Hey Lore, I just wanted to say I love the new direction you guys have been headed in pvp, the hotfixes and small changes really are fantastic. Too bad you're still getting some flack for it but great work.


also This :)
Edited by Ezyo on 1/13/2014 3:57 PM PST
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70 Tauren Priest
3320
i think they should be two completely different animals entirely.

All PVP based stats should simply, and only be PVP power. 80 strength +30 PVP power should read: 110 PVP power.

To compensate for the essential uselessness in PVE with no real stats, PVErs should have absolutely no resil in PVP. Making PVE gear just as useless.

Sure, this would polarize a lot of "what-if" scenarios. But at the end of the day, you're trying to maximize in both worlds - so it really makes no difference. A seasoned PVPer will clearly want the best gear PVP can offer; the same can be said with a seasoned Raider.

You wouldn't bring PVP gear to a guild raid with the expectation to contribute efficiently and maximally the same way you shouldn't be able to maximize as well as you can (currently) with PVE gear in a PVP setting.

This does leave the "well i shouldn't be severely punished for wanting to do a little pvp when i'm not pveing" and i'd have to say otherwise, because you're just as much a participant in the overall success and direction of a PVP battle - much in the same way you wouldn't bring kids in 400 "i just got to pandaland" to participate in actual, real raiding.

I'm honestly sick of the contradictory, the hypocrisy and the double standards PVErs have in regards to PVP equality when PVErs are the poster child for "player segregation 101". If your gear doesn't match a certain criteria, you aren't coming...it's simple as that.

So let's bring that philosophy full circle. No PVP gear = get wrecked.
No PVE gear = get dropped.
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88 Human Rogue
16050
Completely made-up example, I wouldn't read into the actual numbers that much. Could just as easily end up being the same for both, or even the other way around.


Made up example but its been said they are going for similar ilvls which would make this not that far off if it all goes like they plan. With pvp power just being more of you main stat and similar ilvl this is the kind of example would be something that it would be, unless pve gear gets a more massive nerf in pvp than it even does now.

With the goal of no res or battle fatigue the numbers would have to be almost the same other than pvp power making pvp gear worse in pve which seems like that would be its only purpose in that scenario.

I wasn't just using what you said but whats been said so far on wod info. Just trying to get any new wod info that's possible.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
86 Tauren Paladin
10570
If you guys are doing as much number tinkering as you claim I don't know why you wouldn't take this opportunity to rethink pvp power altogether

I'm all for differentiating gear but I find it pretty silly that a stat called "pvp power" exists at all.


We are planning to revisit PvP Power in Warlords. Our current thinking is that, instead of a flat percentage increase to your normal damage/healing in PvP (as it is currently), it'll be a bonus amount of your spec's primary stat (Strength, Agility, or Intellect).

Here's an example with some completely made-up numbers: lets say a piece of gear has 80 Strength and 30 PvP Power on it. In a PvP environment, that would total out to be 110 Strength. Meanwhile, an equivalent piece of PvE gear might only have 100 Strength on it. Again, those numbers are purely hypothetical, but hopefully it illustrates the idea.

That change accomplishes a couple of things for us. First, it lets us keep PvP and PvE item levels closer together, while still ensuring that PvP gear remains best for PvP and vice versa. It also "demystifies" PvP Power quite a bit; a percentage-based increase can be hard to really quantify without a lot of math, but raw stats are much easier to understand.

As to the name, we can talk about it, but part of why we chose the term "PvP Power" to begin with was that it makes it extremely obvious that the stat only functions inside PvP environments. We want to be sure that players who purchase PvP gear know that it's going to be less effective in PvE situations. I'll bring it up, though :)


Made a quick graph for the visual people: http://imgur.com/BMTSiz2
Edited by Eldacar on 1/13/2014 4:23 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13570
A true Warlord would care not about numbered stats, he would simply punch through the monitor with brute strength. At least muscle scales with levels and percentages well!

Edit: Math is savage.
Edited by Carves on 1/13/2014 4:24 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
11555
I like the idea of having Power increase primary stats. It would simplify things a lot.

That said, this could be problematic for certain specs with percent-based primary stat bonuses (eg, unholy and sub) unless you apply Power after Unholy Might or whatever.
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Man, I am way too verbose for Twitter! 140 characters and I lose the ability to create sentences!

It had occurred to me while reading the post that the gear separation between pve and pvp gear is great for rated pvp activities and for raids feels intuitive in those instances; but, for almost every other instance of the game it feels weird.

Would it feel more intuitive for players if, in PvP, players with no PvP gear faced a penalty in rated PvP instances (RBGs and Arenas) that was overcome by using PvP gear? PvP Power would still exist in the manner you described above, but the PvP would also negate the penalty on a flat percentage basis (say, 1/# of major armor slots) until the penalty was reduced. On the flip side, in raids PvP Power wouldn't be effective, thus making PvP gear less attractive for raiding, and preserving the gearing process for both streams.

In the "open world", for which I'll include dailies, Scenarios, open world PvP, dungeons (and maybe even LFR), similar levels of PvE gear and PvP gear would be equally effective. This would allow someone that's primarily into PvP and who gears up through PvP to still partake in vast swathes of the game content while not being effective at end game raiding, where it makes more sense for previous tiers of PvE gear to be more effective during progression.

Similarly, it makes a Mythic raider less effective in rated PvP activities, but still allows that person to casually partake in random BGs with friends or engage in world pvp activities, without having to completely regear to be effective on a casually basis?

I understand completely that at the opposite ends of the competitive spectrum of activities that it feels more intuitive for the gear gained by doing the respective activity to be more effective in the intended role; where I think it breaks down is the rest of the game in-between, which is pretty substantial.

PvP gear as I understand it now just feels counter-intuitive and in a way that I have difficulty expressing adequately, reinforces the idea of separation between the PvE and PvP sides of the game, to the point where it almost feels like they should be completely separate. Though I understand that's not the purpose, it's almost like cognitive dissonance when I think about PvP, and I start to wonder why more things, such as abilities and spells, don't just function completely differently between the two, if PvP-related gear is supposed to only be useful for PvP, as opposed to only not being useful for raiding. Like approaching the limit from the opposite direction.
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56 Dwarf Warrior
12555
If you guys are doing as much number tinkering as you claim I don't know why you wouldn't take this opportunity to rethink pvp power altogether

I'm all for differentiating gear but I find it pretty silly that a stat called "pvp power" exists at all.


We are planning to revisit PvP Power in Warlords. Our current thinking is that, instead of a flat percentage increase to your normal damage/healing in PvP (as it is currently), it'll be a bonus amount of your spec's primary stat (Strength, Agility, or Intellect).

Here's an example with some completely made-up numbers: lets say a piece of gear has 80 Strength and 30 PvP Power on it. In a PvP environment, that would total out to be 110 Strength. Meanwhile, an equivalent piece of PvE gear might only have 100 Strength on it. Again, those numbers are purely hypothetical, but hopefully it illustrates the idea.

That change accomplishes a couple of things for us. First, it lets us keep PvP and PvE item levels closer together, while still ensuring that PvP gear remains best for PvP and vice versa. It also "demystifies" PvP Power quite a bit; a percentage-based increase can be hard to really quantify without a lot of math, but raw stats are much easier to understand.

As to the name, we can talk about it, but part of why we chose the term "PvP Power" to begin with was that it makes it extremely obvious that the stat only functions inside PvP environments. We want to be sure that players who purchase PvP gear know that it's going to be less effective in PvE situations. I'll bring it up, though :)

I really like the idea behind that and it's similar to what I suggested previously. Why not something like this (ROUGH numbers):

PvP Item A has 70 agi/str/int + 30 PvP Power
PvE Item A has 100 agi/str/int
PvP power does not function in PvE "instances", but functions everywhere else.
1 PvP Power = 1 agi/str/int in the open world
1 PvP Power = 2 agi/str/int inside PvP instances

That way both gear types are basically equal in the open world and equally handicapped in the respective instances. I see no reason that PvP gear should be weaker in the open world against mobs. Gear differences are mainly been for instances anyway.
Edited by Epicbeardman on 1/13/2014 4:35 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
12965
If you guys are doing as much number tinkering as you claim I don't know why you wouldn't take this opportunity to rethink pvp power altogether

I'm all for differentiating gear but I find it pretty silly that a stat called "pvp power" exists at all.


We are planning to revisit PvP Power in Warlords. Our current thinking is that, instead of a flat percentage increase to your normal damage/healing in PvP (as it is currently), it'll be a bonus amount of your spec's primary stat (Strength, Agility, or Intellect).

Here's an example with some completely made-up numbers: lets say a piece of gear has 80 Strength and 30 PvP Power on it. In a PvP environment, that would total out to be 110 Strength. Meanwhile, an equivalent piece of PvE gear might only have 100 Strength on it. Again, those numbers are purely hypothetical, but hopefully it illustrates the idea.

That change accomplishes a couple of things for us. First, it lets us keep PvP and PvE item levels closer together, while still ensuring that PvP gear remains best for PvP and vice versa. It also "demystifies" PvP Power quite a bit; a percentage-based increase can be hard to really quantify without a lot of math, but raw stats are much easier to understand.

As to the name, we can talk about it, but part of why we chose the term "PvP Power" to begin with was that it makes it extremely obvious that the stat only functions inside PvP environments. We want to be sure that players who purchase PvP gear know that it's going to be less effective in PvE situations. I'll bring it up, though :)


Does pvp power take effect in the open world? PvP gear still gimped in world pvp?
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