Problems I see happening in Cata

85 Tauren Paladin
5835
Ok right now is supposed to be the highest possible stats we can get right, so is what blizzard is telling me at 85 in the top end gear ret paladin will still be garbage. I don't know about anyone else but I went from doing 21k on saurfang to about 16k. That means our nerf is about 5k in dmg worth. Ok I realize that at 85 paladins where crushing people *pve* but if you look at them now or what was beta after the nerfs we where down at the bottom of the totem pole.

So what I'm simply asking when is this game going to be bring the player not the class, no one is going to want two of the same class/spec in the raid if it's terrible dmg. To be honest our rotation goes from what was simple to one of the hardest and we get nothing for pulling it off. It's kinda like feral all the hardness none of the glory. I'm not sure some of you designers have ever even played other characters but honestly look at a lot of our caster rotations they are jokes in comparison. Don't get me wrong either I played a caster for 5 years in the game I know for a fact that there rotations are beyond simple compared to what a ret is now. Especially when we have to add slice n dice to the rotation oh wait I mean Inquisition.

I would like people at blizzard to really think about this please because look at what all the classes Paragon had to use to pull of Heroic LK. This isn't bring the player still it's bring the class. I wish they would at least try to put people on par or those that actually have a hard rotation get to benefit from it b/c they can pull it off.
Edited by Wìndowlicker on 11/24/2010 9:30 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
8065
I totally agree and feel ya.
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85 Human Paladin
7940
Paladins were fine before the patch. We are fine now. Everyone else's dps went down, too. Our rotation was faceroll before. Now, it is enjoyable and requires thought. QQ less.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4595
RNG =/= enjoyable and thoughtful.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8550
i wouldn't have a problem with these nerfs if exorcism didn't do more damage than hammer of wrath and templars verdict.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13280
To be honest our rotation goes from what was simple to one of the hardest and we get nothing for pulling it off.


You're joking right? How is CS > filler until TV and proc watching 'one of the hardest' in the game? Proc watching can certainly be annoying, especially considering all the clash with our skills and talents but calling it hard is quite a stretch. If you are really having that much of an issue with it download CLCRet and you'll be fine.

The problem with Ret, in my opinion lies with Zealotry and Inquisition. I'll go over Zealotry first. At level 85 in entry raiding gear we cannot come close to the haste soft cap which means that our rotation will have one more filler per CS, not accounting for bloodlust or similar effects. With these extra chances to proc HoPo, Zealotry is devalued even more that it currently is. For example let's say I do CS, TV and a random filler before CS is up again. If I get a DP proc on both of these abilities Zealotry has no net gain in dps. This is a huge issue considering this is supposed to be our signature 31 pt talent. I think a better idea would be for it to either buff our special attacks or Avenging Wrath somehow, as well as adding some PvP utility.

As far as Inquisition goes, I feel the developers are trying to make it viable, but by doing so they are devaluing a lot of our 'signature' attacks. CS, TV and or melee attack are considerable sources of our damage and are all physical. Our only significant sources of holy damage are Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath and Seal/Censure damage. Judgement, Holy Wrath and Consecrate are too low on the totem pole to even be a factor. The devos seem to be in a constant state of flux as how to balance this to make it worthwhile, which creates a buff that is lackluster at best, and utterly insignificant at worst.

This isn't even taking into account the mechanics to keep it up in the first place. I just don't see the logic in adding a Savage Roar type buff (which doesn't even buff half of our damage) in a system already cluttered with countless procs and clashing. I'd like to use Assassination Rogues as an example...they had Hunger for Blood which was changed to Vendetta (look it up if you are unfamiliar with these spells). Their rotation is much less cluttered than Ret...it consists of keeping up SnD (which refreshes with every Envenom) and then doing Mutilate x2 into finisher, yet the devos thought Hunger for Blood was a bad mechanic. Why not change the current form of Inquisition to something like Vendetta? Have it have a 2 min CD and either buff our damage or healing on that target for set amount of time, along with an added effect that would vary depending on who it was cast on. I won't even touch on how our Mastery is pretty underwhelming as well.

The problem with Ret isn't a numbers issue, its a bad mechanics issue. Buffing damage will only create the problems that existed in the beginning of WotLK. The spec was rehauled quite a bit for Cataclysm, and unfortunately it seems like it while take awhile to get it where it needs to be.
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85 Draenei Paladin
4915
At this moment, as it is now, don't speculate, don't debate 85 raiding, don't even try... leave conspiracy theories and all that, seriously.

Some changes applied here recently were done because people QQ'd so much about imbalance at lvl80... pointless since main goal is now 85, but hey, what do I know eh?

Blue post I've read on mmo champ some time ago also said that some changes applied now will be most likely reverted or removed once majority of population is at 85. People are speculating their potential at 85 being currently level 80, lacking few skills, moves, spells, geared in "yesterdays" lvl80 gear with stats that aren't doing us any favors any more, and take it all too serious...

You do realise, that once we're 85, there will be at least good 2, 3 patches changing and adjusting us all over again, right?

Atm just sit back, relax, enjoy new world and wait till all the dust settles.

Edit: doubts and reports about how broken our mechanics are were coming from all directions to Blizz both from Beta and PTR's... our mastery clashes with our 31st "signature" skill, Inquisition buffs only 40~50% of our damage because someone as the dev's office forgot that we're not pure Holy damage anymore, but they nerfed down our physical damage output too "because soon we'll get Inquistion"... yea I don't see the logic there either, but give it time, I'm sure it will be addressed once serious raiding guilds will start mass reporting their paladins failing.
Edited by Hagaar on 11/25/2010 2:35 PM PST
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To be honest our rotation goes from what was simple to one of the hardest and we get nothing for pulling it off.


You're joking right? How is CS > filler until TV and proc watching 'one of the hardest' in the game? Proc watching can certainly be annoying, especially considering all the clash with our skills and talents but calling it hard is quite a stretch. If you are really having that much of an issue with it download CLCRet and you'll be fine.

The problem with Ret, in my opinion lies with Zealotry and Inquisition. I'll go over Zealotry first. At level 85 in entry raiding gear we cannot come close to the haste soft cap which means that our rotation will have one more filler per CS, not accounting for bloodlust or similar effects. With these extra chances to proc HoPo, Zealotry is devalued even more that it currently is. For example let's say I do CS, TV and a random filler before CS is up again. If I get a DP proc on both of these abilities Zealotry has no net gain in dps. This is a huge issue considering this is supposed to be our signature 31 pt talent. I think a better idea would be for it to either buff our special attacks or Avenging Wrath somehow, as well as adding some PvP utility.

As far as Inquisition goes, I feel the developers are trying to make it viable, but by doing so they are devaluing a lot of our 'signature' attacks. CS, TV and or melee attack are considerable sources of our damage and are all physical. Our only significant sources of holy damage are Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath and Seal/Censure damage. Judgement, Holy Wrath and Consecrate are too low on the totem pole to even be a factor. The devos seem to be in a constant state of flux as how to balance this to make it worthwhile, which creates a buff that is lackluster at best, and utterly insignificant at worst.

This isn't even taking into account the mechanics to keep it up in the first place. I just don't see the logic in adding a Savage Roar type buff (which doesn't even buff half of our damage) in a system already cluttered with countless procs and clashing. I'd like to use Assassination Rogues as an example...they had Hunger for Blood which was changed to Vendetta (look it up if you are unfamiliar with these spells). Their rotation is much less cluttered than Ret...it consists of keeping up SnD (which refreshes with every Envenom) and then doing Mutilate x2 into finisher, yet the devos thought Hunger for Blood was a bad mechanic. Why not change the current form of Inquisition to something like Vendetta? Have it have a 2 min CD and either buff our damage or healing on that target for set amount of time, along with an added effect that would vary depending on who it was cast on. I won't even touch on how our Mastery is pretty underwhelming as well.



Very well said. You've laid out our 2 biggest design flaws clearly.

I think Inquisition is probably the worst part about Ret and I will not bother to bind it to anything come Cata. It is a waste of time trying to use it juggling 3 cooldowns, random procs, rotation holes, holy power and then a buff timer that takes away from being able to use a finisher. It's pathetic.


The problem with Ret isn't a numbers issue, its a bad mechanics issue. Buffing damage will only create the problems that existed in the beginning of WotLK. The spec was rehauled quite a bit for Cataclysm, and unfortunately it seems like it while take awhile to get it where it needs to be.


This is the worst part of all. I feel like Ret mechanics were FINALLY in a good place with WotLK and did not deserve the complete gutting it received. Now I get to look forward to an entire expansion of fixing what was not broken. If Ret needed to be more "complicated" it could have been done in the framework that already existed because it was FUN.
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