What is Archangel for now?

85 Human Priest
archangel is for shadow priests come cata now lol.
Since casting mind-flay isn't actively going out of there normal dps habits.
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85 Worgen Mage
Why aren't there threads like this for reflective shield? It's equally useless for raiding disc priest, and simply skipped. This talent is no different. Cute wings, but useless. and LOL at priests going holy because of 4.0, so the new talents aren't OMG AMAZING, what's there is still a VERY viable option that allows us to thrive at the same thing we thrived at prior to 4.0, preventing damage, removing diseases/magic effects and spot healing.

The 10sec damage reduction on barrier seems like an improvement, smiting to heal? that was gimmicky from the start anyway. No different then giving my rogue a dps boost if I bandaid someone mid raid.

Just what are you actually preventing with a shield that's now smaller than your flash heal?
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85 Blood Elf Priest
Just what are you actually preventing with a shield that's now smaller than your flash heal?

Ehh, saves me a bit of mana from a renew, and lasts longer. With a good tank with plenty of armor, it'll get them through trash mobs without a scratch. Otherwise it's good for preventing burst damage from bosses or a one-shot-kill on a DPS that's managed to grab aggro somehow. I'm not saying that it's amazing, but shield still has its uses.
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85 Human Priest
It seems to me, that by far the simplest fix to archangel would be to removed the mana return and have evangelism reduce the cost of smite by 35/70%.

This would fix smite being useless as it would become the most efficient way to heal low incoming damage.

This would fix archangel being useless due to lost mana efficiency.

This would fix Archangel being useless for holy due to lost mana efficiency not being worth the +healing.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
This would fix smite being useless as it would become the most efficient way to heal low incoming damage.

In theory, if Atonement actually healed in a useful way. With the number of dragon fights in Cata, if Atonement's supposed to be useful in a raid, they'll have to figure out a way for it to be able to hit the person tanking a mob with a big hitbox, rather than just overhealing melee dps who are already at full health.

(tested this on multiple dragons in RS, OS, and ICC; zero Atonement heals landed on tanks, out of ~800 casts. I suspect it's because the 8 yd. range is measured from a point in the middle of the hitbox, rather than from the perimeter)
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85 Gnome Priest
If they buff Evangal to last 30 seconds per refresh I would then consider it. As of now I can not maintain 5 stacks if @%@# hits the fan making the 15pct bonus useless since I can't trigger it.

Lasting 30 seconds would allow an actual weave of the spell and I would take it instead of Reflective Shield.

That would be brilliant! Right now the stack just falls off too quickly - Changing the duration would be a great fix and make it much more viable and available when we needed it. I also don't see how this could become overpowered, great suggestion!
Edited by Shirel on 11/26/2010 6:32 AM PST
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85 Goblin Priest
Yeah but on beta isnt atonement nerfed from live, i remember reading that it only heals for 50% of the smite not 100% and thats only 25% if it heals the priest.

Right now I can say at 85 from a pvp/pve standpoint stacking evang 5 times will rarely happen outside of 5 mans. I never cared for the mana return it was always about the extra +healing so i wouldnt mind them nerfing the mana return to reduce the stack size.

Some changes to the whole smite atonement evang aa.

Give us a glyph or add on to the smite glyph reduced mana cost of smite.
Change evang to stack to 3 and aa to work on those 3 stacks
Have aa remove the mana return or nerf it based on 3 stacks instead of 5

the atonement nerf is fine I'm never going to actually use smite to heal people in a raid environment its only to get my stacks and heal
Edited by Hoggel on 11/26/2010 7:16 AM PST
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85 Draenei Priest
I strongly suggest that everyone at least wait until you can get to 85 and try it out before knocking the talents. Based on my experience on the beta, they're actually quite useful.

Here's my experience so far. At 85, Heal (and by extension, Atonement) becomes a much bigger part of your rotations than they do at 80. They essentially become the spells you use when no one's taking tons of damage and can "wait" to be healed. So any dps that's at 50% or more or if the tank is around 75% or more (if you're assigned to tank healing).

Atonement becomes pretty comparable to Heal in terms of mana efficiency at 85. Each stack of Evangelism lowers the cost of Smite. If you're comparing Heal to Atonement, the mana return "nerf" actually makes sense. The mana returns from Archangel are only there to pay for the first few expensive Smites until you get your stacks up. Trust me, Disc priests are just fine in the mana regen department. We can do without the extra.

Here's how things typically went for me on a raid boss (where Atonement actually worked...I'll get that one in a bit). At the beginning of the fight, it's always really easy to get up five stacks, because the damage comes in slowly at first. And it may seems counter-intuitive at first, but I generally keep the stacks of Evangelism up for a while. Here's why. Evangelism not only makes Smite hit harder and makes it cheaper, but it also makes Penance significantly cheaper as well (and lowers its CD with ToT). So I usually only hit the Archangel button when someone really starts to take serious damage (or even moderate damage, since the cooldown on AA is so short you really don't have to think about "saving it" all that much). The 15% boost in healing really makes a dent when you use it at the right times.

And after things calm down a bit (relatively) you can build your stacks back up. When you have up to twenty seconds between Smite casts, it's actually not as hard as you think to keep stacks up. You have plenty of time to cast other spells if you need to.

It really makes Discipline fun and interesting to play trading between throughput (with AA) and mana efficiency (with full Evan stacks) modes. And that's not even counting the fights (like Halfus Wyrmbreaker) where bosses take additional damage. Atonement totally rocks the house on those fights. Greater Heal amounts for Heal mana costs? Yes please :)

Now the big elephant in the room for the Smite spec are the hitbox issues. Atonement appears to measure its 8 yard range from the center of a target's hitbox, which makes it very difficult (read: impossible) to any friendly targets when the hitbox is larger than 8 yards. So a good majority of raid bosses make the entire strategy completely null and void. Unfortunately it seems like a bug that just hasn't gotten fixed over the course of the beta. It's really pretty devastating that something this interesting is held back by what has to be a bug that they just haven't gotten to yet. If the range were measured from the rim of the hitbox (like I believe Circle of Healing already does), then everything's peachy again. Until then, there are just going to be fights where you just can't afford to use these talents...which, to be blunt, just flat out sucks. Hopefully it's a bug that get fixed "soon" :)

Like I said, try not to be too negative about the Smite talents in Disc until you've tried them at max level. You'll miss out on some really fun and interesting gameplay. And if you don't enjoy the talents like I do, then you're also in luck. You can skip them and still be effective if you like.

Edit: And no, Atonement wasn't nerfed in a recent beta patch. It was a typo on MMO-Champion at the time. It still heals at 100% of the damage done by Smite
Edited by Fatherfranz on 11/26/2010 9:45 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Mage
smite, atonement and archangel as it currently works is broken. in a difficult fight where actual healing is required its not possible to gain 5 stacks of atonement to use archangel. smite heals for too little and does not benefit from the archangel buff to healing. 5 stacks is a lot, especially since it takes 2.5 seconds (unhasted) to cast. thats a total of 12.5 seconds plus globals, ending up ~18 seconds minus haste buff. so in all reality it will take ~13.5 (somewhere around 25% haste, healers might have more or less) seconds to build up evangelism enough to use archangel all the while using a heal that hits for 4-6 but the tank is taking hits of 20-30k.

without the buff of archangel disc is still an underpowered healing class. the heals hit for less than other similarly geared healers. id like to see it changed to 3 stacks and the numbers reworked.

I don't remember smiting trigerring a GCD after the cast on my priest. It would only take you the casting time since the GCD pass while you are casting. THe only time where you would waste time after casting is if you had enough haste so smite would be cast faster than a GCD take so under 1 sec cast for smite to go under the GCD cap. With no haste, a full archangel right now would take 5 smite (2,5 sec) + 1 gcd (1,5 sec) to ahve the full effect activated. 14 sec total. It's still too much of course for such a low healing bonus not even applying to the heals you use to re-stack it if you want to keep it running as much as possible.
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85 Draenei Priest

the duration of atonement was increased to 20 seconds, up from 15. dosent make it any easier to cast 5 smites, however, and then be able to use archangel when it would be a benefit. the reality is you sneak in smites when possible and end up poping an underpowered archangel because evangelism is about to wear off. broken/useless mechanic is broken/useless.

couple of points Fatherfranz made - hitbox and holding stacks of atonement. the hitbox issue just further compounds the broken nature of atonement and archangel. as far as holding atonement stacks.. yes i agree this is stragically beneficial at times. however, the way it works now youll never get a chance to get a second 5 stack of atonement. so you hold those first 5 through the whole fight hoping you pop wings at the right time and praying you get that smite in on time so you dont lose them. its a degree of complexity that isnt needed. healers shouldnt have to watch spell timers in order to get max output. theres too much on the line. if someone makes a mistake and requires extra healing, or just gets hit hard your prioity will always be to keep them alive. casting that extra unanticipated heal could cause you to lose atonement and then youll never get to use it. i have 25 lives to juggle already, i dont need a timer thrown in the mix.

I disagree. You'll have just as much time to cast Smite during a fight as you'll have time to cast Heal. And you have plenty of time to do both. In fact, if you don't use either of those spells often, you run a serious risk of running out of mana early in a fight. You actually have an easier time getting off Smites because the cast time is lower than Heal (Smite is 1.8 seconds with Divine Fury if I remember correctly). Do you always have time to cast five in a row? No, not really, but you don't have to. All you have to do is squeeze in one Smite every 20 seconds. You can do a lot of extra healing in between Smites.

And personally I prefer the extra complexity. It separates good healers from great ones. It's certainly a big step forward from only hitting PW:S every GCD on every fight.
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85 Draenei Priest
i love the idea. just that the application is falling short. using smite as a filler heal now and then is fine, the same as you would heal. but having it lead to archangel, which has a stack requirement that is unrealistic and wont get used to full capicity is a let down. its talent space on a condensed tree that wont be used in its current form.

Unless the fight was just about to end I've never used AA without full stacks. And I always made sure to have a full stack going into a big AE or tank healing phase. It never really felt like a burden at all in the beta raids.

Obviously we just see things differently, and that's okay. It's perfectly reasonable to skip the talents if you like. I just personally find the talents to be more fun than a spec that doesn't have them.

Like I said in the first post, at least wait a little while longer and try them out for yourself at max level and see what's more fun for you. You should be able to play either way.
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85 Human Priest
I'm with Franz on this one all the way.

If you plan on using a heal on a melee or tank target, chances are Smite is simply going to be superior. Now, it's not mandatory because it simply does not distance itself enough from just using heal to make it mandatory. But it is definitely better than just using heal on melee targets, and as a talent the 5points invested in Atonement is better than the alternative use of those 5 talent points.

So if you're not comfortable with Smite as a healing spell - which I think is really the crux of the issue when the dust from all the rhetoric settles - then you don't have to use it.

But if you're looking to max out your true potential and make the most out of your toon on heavy aoe damage HM fights, then working in Smites is the way to go. I think this will become apparent in tough regmode fights and most hm fights in cata. The 15% healing bonus is really a 20% healing bonus when PoH is involved. 20% extra power to PoH for up to 18 seconds of heavy aoe damage is nontrivial no matter how you cut it.
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85 Human Priest
Just a note to the people suggesting it's a mana restore mechanism: it's not, it's still a (massive) net mana loss @ 85 - it barely broke even at 15% mana restore.
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87 Night Elf Death Knight
@ Franz

Where are you getting 20 seconds on Evan? Its 15 seconds on live. I have honestly had trouble keeping the stacks full if I have to do an emergency heal on a melee and move back to the tank to shield > penance > gheal/flash heal. By the time I get ready to smite its too late and the stacks fall off.

If they made Evan last 30 seconds and refreshed to 30 with Arch on a 45 second cool down I would LOVE the 15pct bonus to healing on my Penance and heals. With ToT granting me lower cool down on penance that is a massive gain to healing.

However, maintaining those stacks proves to be difficult in high damage situations and it is NOT worth the 5 points in its current incarnation.

I would rather focus on healing with Heal to remove WS from my target and continue to spam heal and shield. This grants great mana efficiency and more shields. Stack Mastery and get those shields higher.

The mana regen was nice, yes. Now its neutral so it is free heals. I don't have a problem with them nerfing the mana since within 1 minute I could gain 12k mana from smites. That is OP. I would rather them keep the mana regen at 1pct per stack but make the buff last 30 seconds and Arch on a 45 second cool down so we can "burst heal" like the want us to.

I am all for using cool downs to heal hard if I need to much like I need to use my tank cool downs if things go wrong. Healers need that and it makes it fun.

As of now, it is NOT worth it. And at 85? Really? Are you going to spend the points into Atonment/ToT/Evan/Arch (because you WILL take ToT if you are smiting, end of story) when you can take Inspiration 2/2 and Darkness 2/2?

Most of you are NOT placing value of the talent point to the value of the ability. Doing dmg to gain 15pct to all heals is NOT worth it when the stacks have a chance of falling. I will take my 10pct Inspiration (which has a 100pct up time on my target for the most part) and even Surge of light since I will be casting Heal to remove WS and grant me free Flash heals.

You guys need to think about this before you even try and defending Smite/Atonement. Is it a fun mechanic to Burst Heal? Yes. Is it worth it for talent point value?

Hell No.
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100 Night Elf Priest
"Now" as in, for the remaining week and a half of Wrath, Archangel/Atonement is for goofing around; it gives mana back that we don't need; the people we want the atonement heal to land on are usually out of range, and the "Time to Live" for a tank is very short; thus not giving many safe chances for a tank healer to roll the dice on an atonement heal. This has the side problem that it is hard to maintain and put a 15 second stack to good use before it either falls off or the fight is over.

I think the real killer is the tank's time to live. If this became longer (as promised in Cata), risking the atonement heal landing on the rogue becomes not quite so bad, if the rogue was damaged and could use the 5k or whatever, that will be useful, effective healing in a Cata environment.

There are some things that I wish they'd do to fine tune this set of abilities, Evangelism lasting 30 seconds instead of 15 and better range on the atonement heal itself would go a long way to making it work well.

Still, I think its interesting enough to where you could take dual disc specs for tank healing, one with the atonement set and inspiration, and one with mental agility, inner sanctum, and focused will + inspiration. Make the decision based upon whether the damage profile has big swings or not.

I don't claim to know or have much interest in what raid healing focused folks with bubblespam like or want.

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85 Draenei Priest
Here's the talent spec I typically used on the beta. I may eventually put a full two points into Strength of Soul (and at first I did), but I really didn't find myself using heal on the same target often enough for it to matter.


And the last beta build had Evangelism at 20 seconds. Also just checked it on live. Definitely 20 seconds.

Not sure if that changes your opinion of the talent points at all, Saikoro, but I never really had any issues keeping the stacks up unless something went very very wrong. And when that happened, I've already pressed the AA button to begin with.

Gavinel, from my raiding experience on the beta, I can tell you that the tank's time to live has gone way up for most fights. So much so that most pickup groups never even assigned someone to be a "tank healer" and still did just fine. It's usually a much slower pace on the tank healing front because everyone has really large health pools. If a tank drops like a rock, it's either because the raid did something wrong (or because you're on the Chimeron fight, which is kind of ridiculous fight...but in a good way).
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