What is Archangel for now?

98 Blood Elf Priest
8265
Atonement really is a lot of fun and can be very powerful when you learn that it is no longer a mana return CD and instead throughput. AKA you keep 5 stack efficient smite heals until you need extra throughput and pop AA + other heals.

I do agree with Franz that bumping it back to 120% would put it back on parallel with Heal. It needs to be a bit better overall to overcome the drawbacks unless they change how the heal lands. If the 14yd range is true, that will help with hitbox issue, but makes it even more likely the heal will land on some random lower health DPS instead.

I love the feel and play of atonement in 5 mans and heroics, but just feel it needs some further tweaking to be used in raids. However, It is still viable on many fights if you want pretty wings. =)
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98 Blood Elf Priest
8265
One other thing to note is how amazing the Heal > Shield CD reduction is. You can basically cast Shield > penance > renew >1-2 heals. It doesn't line up perfectly and depends on tank health on whether you would throw out a renew/pom or gheal etc.. But it basically comes down to 1-2x heal > Shield with rest of the casts depending on situation and tank health. With this setup, you can heavily stack mastery for beefy shields, which also seems to synergize well with shield > PoH casting for aoe healing.

I haven't run the numbers to be sure as I tend to play Holy more than Disc, but from my time on beta, Mastery seemed to be the way to go for Disc.
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83 Blood Elf Priest
2250
Make it so that it stacks to 3 Instead, and restores 3% Mana for each stack, bam, not OP. (A bit more powerful then Blood Elf Racial) and people can use it again. Tah-dah!
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85 Draenei Paladin
2570
One other thing to note is how amazing the Heal > Shield CD reduction is. You can basically cast Shield > penance > renew >1-2 heals. It doesn't line up perfectly and depends on tank health on whether you would throw out a renew/pom or gheal etc.. But it basically comes down to 1-2x heal > Shield with rest of the casts depending on situation and tank health. With this setup, you can heavily stack mastery for beefy shields, which also seems to synergize well with shield > PoH casting for aoe healing.

I haven't run the numbers to be sure as I tend to play Holy more than Disc, but from my time on beta, Mastery seemed to be the way to go for Disc.


PW:S will not scale to 85 as you hope, even with mastery you won't see it absorb like you are hoping it does. Best of luck piling on those talent points that reduce cooldown in the discipline tree; most priests will be forced to spend those talent points in Holy so they can actually perform better. Major design flaws.
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20 Night Elf Druid
80
The only issue I see with your "you should never cast Heal" scenario, is the tank that has enough avoidance to matter, since then you have a higher chance to have a heal you are casting land when he doesn't take a hit. If that's a Heal, you're out a small amount of mana. If it's a Greater Heal, you're out a much larger amount of mana.


I think you're presuming you'll simply spam heals. However, this isn't the case. Due to the enormous disparity in size between Heal and Greater Heal, anything you can actually heal by simply rolling Heals on the target can be easily healed by waiting for the damage to occur and then healing it up afterward.

So the problem you're citing here only becomes a 'problem' when Heal is simply too small to use in any case.

Also, without very disciplined healers (no pun intended), if you're waiting to hit a tank with a big Greater Heal each time, you're more likely to see cross healing, which again, causes you to waste mana with overheals.


Only if you actually cast that unnecessary Greater Heal. The situation you're describing here is one where someone else actually did your job, so you don't need to do it.

Keep in mind that before WotLK and effectively infinite mana, healers did have tools to deal with such issues - such as cast & cancel.
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85 Draenei Priest
3910
At 10% it would break even at 85 at around 136k mana (or so).

That isn't out of reach, whereas at 80 you need about 50k, which is out of reach, but not drastically so.

Currently, it is a mana loss and always will be (requiring like 270k mana to break even assuming 5%).


The problem here is that people became used to AA being used as a mana battery when it was first introduced. It's an awesome concept to have another constant source of mana regen. But the issue here is that we just don't need the extra regen.

Disc priest mana is just fine without the extra returns from AA. And if the build is to become an "optional" one, it has to stay that way. I rarely ran out of mana when I played intelligently. Shadowfiend, Hymn of Hope, and potions were more than enough to keep my head above water. Adding another massive source of regen would seriously knock things out of balance.

AA now works much the same way that Rapture and Inner Focus does. It pays for a few expensive spells once in a while. Rapture makes PW:S cheaper every 15 seconds. Inner Focus makes an expensive spell free every 45 seconds. Archangel makes your first five Smites cheaper every 30 seconds.

You'll have a lot fewer headaches if you think about it in these terms. Asking for a bump to the mana returns (or just calling them worthless in general) is trying to make AA something it's not intended to be.
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85 Goblin Priest
3915
So they invented some interesting new disc talents that rely on us dpsing to benefit from these talents, that sounds cool and all except that it absolutely does not fit how we are forced to play in cata. The talents are borderline useless at 80 where we are kind of OP, does anyone really think they will be usefull at 85 where apparently every ounce of mana matters and when our heals are less effective? Ill be skipping them all.
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85 Draenei Priest
3910
So they invented some interesting new disc talents that rely on us dpsing to benefit from these talents, that sounds cool and all except that it absolutely does not fit how we are forced to play in cata. The talents are borderline useless at 80 where we are kind of OP, does anyone really think they will be usefull at 85 where apparently every ounce of mana matters and when our heals are less effective? Ill be skipping them all.


I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. Wait and make that statement when you can test it out for yourself. With Atonement as Disc, the talents become pretty valuable and a lot of fun at 85. I had a spec on the beta with Atonement/Evangelism/Archangel ever since they bumped up the healing from Atonement about three months ago. Unless something drastic changes, it's going to take a lot for me to drop it from my spec completely.
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85 Draenei Priest
3910

The breakpoint is at about 5500 spellpower. Greater than this, and Smite will start generating more hps. It would take about 14.5k spellpower for Smite to be more efficient.

However, the "Smite vs. Heal" debate tends to obscure the fact that even players who don't use Atonement won't cast Heal - they'll cast Greater Heal.

Greater Heal and Heal have virtually identical efficiency since your Greater Heal drops the cooldown on Inner Focus by 5 sec (which is far more significant than potential Surge of Light procs). However, Greater Heal has enormously more throughput. So the costs of both Greater Heal and Heal are roughly the same except for the fact that you need to spend two and a half times longer casting Heals.

The real virtue of Atonement isn't that you replace the spam-Heal you shouldn't be casting in the first place. It's that you receive a cheap, quick heal that doesn't move Grace.


The two spells may have similar HPM at current gear levels, however, the difference become much more pronounced as it scales with spellpower.

At 7983 spellpower (which is what I had on the beta), Heal runs at about 5.15 hpm without any stacks of Grace. Greater Heal, at the same spellpower, is around 4.58 hpm. It's close, yes. But not that close.

Both Penance and Binding Heal both have higher efficiencies than Greater Heal does (6.38 and 5.13 respectively). Even Smite with full stacks (not counting the returns from Archangel) is 4.6 hpm.

This is all theoretical data, however, since the beta's closed. So maybe take it with a grain of salt for the next week or two :)
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85 Undead Priest
6340
you're not supposed to keep archangel up all the time or even on cooldown

this is a mana return mechanic.


yeah... a mana return mechanic that takes more mana than it returns. God, where do i sign up????
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90 Human Priest
6245

From Ghostcrawler:
There is an optional Discipline build where you take Atonement/Archangel and you can use Smite on the tanked target, and have higher HPS than if you just chain Heal the tank. This isn’t always optimal, as Atonement heals the lowest health target (which could be a Rogue standing in a fire), but that’s not always such a bad thing in Cataclysm’s environment where the MT doesn’t have to be spam healed. That said, we think it is interesting gameplay unique to the Disc priest.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26859270142&postId=268477440890&sid=1#32

Looks like GC's "doing it wrong." =P


Unless they fixed both the hitbox problem and the bit where Heal was always better than a Smite after the Atonement changes, he's certainly doing it wrong now.
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20 Night Elf Druid
80
At 7983 spellpower (which is what I had on the beta), Heal runs at about 5.15 hpm without any stacks of Grace. Greater Heal, at the same spellpower, is around 4.58 hpm. It's close, yes. But not that close.


The amount of spellpower doesn't matter, since Heal and Greater Heal scale the same with spellpower. Note that the only spells that scale differently are Holy Word: Sanctuary, Binding Heal and Smite. The former two scale worse, the latter scales better.

Without seeing your equations, I can't tell you what you're overlooking but I can guess: the ToT/IF cost reduction I mentioned.

Reducing the cooldown by 1/9th of the total duration for IF means that you're effectively saving 1/9th of the cost of Greater Heal over time. This gives us a worst case scenario where we're reducing the cost of Greater Heal by 3% base mana (1/9th of 27% base mana) to 24% base mana.

A 24% base mana Greater Heal costs 2.67 times as much as Heal. And a Greater Heal heals 2.67 times as much as Heal.
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85 Draenei Priest
3910
The amount of spellpower doesn't matter, since Heal and Greater Heal scale the same with spellpower. Note that the only spells that scale differently are Holy Word: Sanctuary, Binding Heal and Smite. The former two scale worse, the latter scales better.

Without seeing your equations, I can't tell you what you're overlooking but I can guess: the ToT/IF cost reduction I mentioned.

Reducing the cooldown by 1/9th of the total duration for IF means that you're effectively saving 1/9th of the cost of Greater Heal over time. This gives us a worst case scenario where we're reducing the cost of Greater Heal by 3% base mana (1/9th of 27% base mana) to 24% base mana.

A 24% base mana Greater Heal costs 2.67 times as much as Heal. And a Greater Heal heals 2.67 times as much as Heal.


You'll have to forgive me. I was being a bit lazy this morning and used the Elitist Jerks spreadsheet instead of working out the values myself. So the numbers were a bit off because there were some default values input that I didn't realize at the time.

Here is the formula I've been using for average, non-crit HPM.

(Average Base Heal Amount + (SP Coefficient * Spellpower)) * (1 + Twin Disciplines + Empowered Healing) = Average Healed Amount

Average Healed Amount / (Base Mana * .27) = Average HPM


Avg HPM for Greater Heal

((7533 + (.9672 * 7963)) * (1 + .06 + .15)) / (20590 * .27) =

18458 / 5559 = 3.32 hpm


Avg HPM for Heal:

((3390 + (.302 * 7963)) * (1 + .06 + .15)) / (20590 * .09) =

7012 / 1853 = 3.78 hpm


Now calculating the mana benefits from Inner Focus is a little tricky. Absolute, best-case scenario is that you only use IF on Greater Heal casts and chain-cast nothing but GH with Divine Fury. (This isn't very likely to happen under normal circumstances, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.)

So with Divine Fury, GH is a 2.5 second cast (I won't go into haste ratings because I can't remember how much I had on the beta). With Train of Thought (which reduces the IF CD by 5 sec per cast), the number of casts it would take to lower the cast time of IF to zero would be:

IF CD - (Number of Casts * Train of Thought Reduction) = 0

(Number of Casts * ToT Reduction) = IF CD

Number of Casts = IF CD / (ToT Reduction)

Number of Casts = 45 / 5 = 9

That's where you're getting the 1/9th mana reduction I assume? That means that every 9th cast of GH is free and you can reduce the average cost over 9 spells. (Keep in mind that the CD reduction, like everything else is subject to server lag. So it may be closer to every 10 casts, but this is best cast scenario so I'll ignore it for now.)

So here's Greater Heal's HPM with the reduction from IF and ToT:

18458 / (20590 * .24) =
18458 / 4942 = 3.73 hpm

Which is still marginally less efficient than Heal. In practice, the HPM is likely a lot lower, since you're rarely chain-casting 9 Greater Heals in a row. The HPM lowers even further if you use Inner Focus on the other spells it's used for. I personally keep IF macro'd to all four spells for the boost in crit rate, and just to make sure that it's used on CD.
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98 Blood Elf Priest
8265
I wish beta was still open so I could double check my numbers. I remember with heavy mastery, my shields being more efficient than heal (this was before 20% buff). At least before, the optimal setup was heal > shield with free globals being filled with penance on CD and hasted renew during upcoming high dmg but high health and gheal when sub 75%. At that point, just casting gheal > IF gheal with penance thrown in there was not the way to go, but the 20% buffs could have thrown the numbers off.

Also in regards to previous post, at least pre 20% buff, mastery stacked shields were the most efficient heal Disc had besides penance.
Edited by Taihou on 11/29/2010 8:43 PM PST
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90 Goblin Warlock
11170
11/25/2010 6:22 AMPosted by Cullodina
It needs tweaking. The 15% mana return was a little too good, and myself and others were worried that disc (and holy) priests would become balanced around having to smite or suffer severe mana problems. But now that Blizzard seems to have stated it is strictly optional, it seems underwhelming. Which is a shame for something that Blizzard clearly put so much work into.


Yeah the 15% mana return was too good but in what situations would you actually be smiting in? In PvP smite can cause a silence, be interrupted and in PvE you would be using this to regenerate mana. It's just a lazy mechanic because they did not want to give Priests Holy Power. It should be removed but it might scale at 85 so not sure.
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12/06/2010 3:12 PMPosted by Feardotpanic
11/25/2010 6:22 AMPosted by Cullodina
It needs tweaking. The 15% mana return was a little too good, and myself and others were worried that disc (and holy) priests would become balanced around having to smite or suffer severe mana problems. But now that Blizzard seems to have stated it is strictly optional, it seems underwhelming. Which is a shame for something that Blizzard clearly put so much work into.


Yeah the 15% mana return was too good but in what situations would you actually be smiting in? In PvP smite can cause a silence, be interrupted and in PvE you would be using this to regenerate mana. It's just a lazy mechanic because they did not want to give Priests Holy Power. It should be removed but it might scale at 85 so not sure.


Actually, it was never 15% mana return. It was bugged; the numbers were swapped with Dark Archangel, so DA was only returning 15% while AA returned 25%, making it very powerful. When they finally fixed DA to have 25%, AA inexplicably ended up at 5%. Everyone assumed it was a bug, but after a month or two of it being the same, we realized that it was intended. In my opinion, it killed the Smiting spec and made it unusable. At 25%, it was quite a fun way of healing and keeping mana relatively high, but at 5%, it barely returns the cost of one Smite.

People are right in that it's now a healing cooldown instead of a mana cooldown, but personally, i don't like the model.
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