Feral versus rogue stealth MASSIVE difference

90 Night Elf Rogue
15685
There was some thread where people were cross talking, but no one said "I just did this".

So I did.

I took my +stealth cloak off, as the feral I was testing with didn't have his on. My spec I tested with was pvp subtlety, but all rogue specs are supposed to have "good" stealth. Instead, our stealth "sucks".

The difference is about melee range.


Procedure:

We dropped group. He stood on a manhole. I tapped towards it, pausing for several second betwixt each tap. Eventually he saw me:

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb349/Verain_of_Ursin/Seerogue.jpg

I continue tapping forward, until I finally see him HERE:

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb349/Verain_of_Ursin/Seecat.jpg


He was stationary from the first image to the second- the text about him moving was that he had figured he'd stand on the manhole, but didn't tell me that. That run was not pictured.


Both of our stealth levels SHOULD HAVE BEEN 415 (5*80 + 15). His 15 should have been from feral instinct, mine should have been from Master of Deception, which is supposed to be "baked in".

We are both night elves, but they just took away my extra night elf +stealth. Supposedly they took it away from prowl too, but that might not be the case.


As you can see I have to be literally TOUCHING him before I can see him, whereas he sees me from quite a distance away.


I realize this has been brought up before, but if the devs are claiming it's equal, they are flat out 100% wrong.


This needs fixed, badly.


You can let it fall off the frost page, but either way this is getting bumped on Monday, when the people who can hotfix it are back in the office!
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85 Goblin Rogue
5480
There's 3 topics on this already, but things get lost fast apparently, so I'll repost what I put on the other threads:

Rogue stealth:

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1784

Take note of effect 2, which says:

Effect #2 Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 40


Feral prowl:

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=5215

Which has this:

Effect #1 Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 50


When the rogue talent to increase stealth level was removed, there were many posts on the forums about rogues having worse stealth than rogues. GC specifically said that rogues will get the benefit from that talent baseline, meaning our stealth would be slightly better than ferals, and the talent will be removed.

Looks like they forgot to buff our stealth when they removed the talent.
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85 Orc Death Knight
3175
lvl 5 stealth is less than lvl 10 prowl? who knew!
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85 Undead Rogue
7760
@Theculling

I believe someone mentioned this in the other thread, but those values from wowhead are from when the spell is learned.

Rogues learn Stealth at level 5:

40 = 5*5 + 15 (from baseline MoD)

Druids learn Prowl at level 10:

50 = 5*10 (Druids do not get baseline FI until specced Feral)

At level 10, Rogues would have stealth level of 65 and be ahead of Druids, like it should be.

The problem is not the number Blizzard entered for our stealth level, it's a bug with something else. Which is why they think it's correct on their end.
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90 Orc Rogue
12810
I've been reading the various threads on this subject and here is what I see.
Base Stealth, pre patch is 400 (Level*5 at 80). Subtlety rogues and feral druids get +15 via talents. Bumping stealth to 415. Post patch, the +15 for rogues is "baked in" and druids still have to spec into it. GC has confirmed that the issue has been looked at and that stealth levels are as intended.

People have tested the issue and evidence has shown that feral druids can spot rogues much sooner than rogues.

According to WoWWiki.com, there are two things that modify Stealth. Subtlety modifiers such as Feral Instinct and Sneaking Potion add to the Stealth level. Detection modifiers such Heightened Senses and Deathblow X11 Goggles increase the players detection, which negates some the opponents Stealth level.

It seems to me that druids got a boost to their detection which is allowing them to spot rogues sooner. The devs will need to look into this and decide if it's working as intended.

TL;DNR: Stealth is fine. Let's discuss detection levels.
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86 Night Elf Druid
7200
Rogue stealth is broken. It needs to be brought to the level of Ferals.

The idea of Rogues having greater stealth then ferals is another topic.

Moo
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85 Gnome Rogue
6640
I'm fine with blizzard's intent of rogue stealth = feral stealth > resto/boomkin stealth.



I just wish that were actually the case :(
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85 Night Elf Rogue
8920
I'm fine with blizzard's intent of rogue stealth = feral stealth > resto/boomkin stealth.



I just wish that were actually the case :(


This. I just generally feel my stealth is weaker. I'm more easily seen by players/mobs. I used to almost never get spotted (when I wasn't a nelf) when I had MoD + movespeed.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
15685
Rogue = Feral > Resto/Balance is the stated dev intent. In the past rogues have been able to talent 1.2 levels of detect, but that's currently not the case.

Instead, what we have is totally absurd. I can't see that cat unless I'm in his model, pretty much- basically, that's the same distance at which I would see a level 200 rogue or druid- that's the distance at which NO AMOUNT OF STEALTH would let someone remain hidden.


Whether the issue is something related to values in wowhead or not, I'm unsure.


Can someone get on like a level 30 or 70 feral and test? I want to know whether the free cat bonus is a couple levels or whether it totally breaks the concept of stealth.
Edited by Verain on 11/26/2010 10:22 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
That's really odd. I seriously tested this yesterday and it was fine.
$&#@ed up...

Edit: Looks like they removed +stealth from cloak.
Edited by Knocrogue on 11/26/2010 10:24 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
15685
Yes they did. I took my cloak off during the test because I didn't realize they would jack that up, but looking now Shadow Armor is agility and armor (lol), and stealth is agility and dodge.

Amusing and definitely informative, but not really relevant to the testing or the point.
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100 Night Elf Druid
15670
Because Tulok pointed it out, this is perhaps another set of experiments to try.

Place a Rogue & Druid in the same location. Have a non-rogue, non-feral inch towards them to try to detect them. See who (if either) is detected first.

Just as a check on this, make sure you try this with different races and multiple characters. There may be any manner of other bugs here such as Druids not having a stealth bonus removed that was removed from Rogues or some other past modifier not correctly cleared.
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90 Orc Rogue
12810
I've been reading the various threads on this subject and here is what I see.
Base Stealth, pre patch is 400 (Level*5 at 80). Subtlety rogues and feral druids get +15 via talents. Bumping stealth to 415. Post patch, the +15 for rogues is "baked in" and druids still have to spec into it. GC has confirmed that the issue has been looked at and that stealth levels are as intended.

People have tested the issue and evidence has shown that feral druids can spot rogues much sooner than rogues.

According to WoWWiki.com, there are two things that modify Stealth. Subtlety modifiers such as Feral Instinct and Sneaking Potion add to the Stealth level. Detection modifiers such Heightened Senses and Deathblow X11 Goggles increase the players detection, which negates some the opponents Stealth level.

It seems to me that druids got a boost to their detection which is allowing them to spot rogues sooner. The devs will need to look into this and decide if it's working as intended.

TL;DNR: Stealth is fine. Let's discuss detection levels.


except I can barely see them at all even when we're just testing and not actually trying to open on each other

This could still be a detection issue in that rogue detection has been gimped somehow. All I'm saying is that if the Stealth numbers are correct, the discrepancy must be caused by detection numbers/levels. Either Druids got a buff or Rogues got a nerf. Either way, something is out of balance.
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87 Undead Rogue
0
I usually manage to get the sap/opener off on Ferals, but that's probably due to my sap macro or the enemy Ferals slow reflexes. Anecdotal I know, but that's just my experience relating to this matter.
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85 Goblin Priest
5470
I usually manage to get the sap/opener off on Ferals, but that's probably due to my sap macro or the enemy Ferals slow reflexes. Anecdotal I know, but that's just my experience relating to this matter.


Do you actually see them though or are you just mashing your sap macro?
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