Garrosh the Warchief

85 Blood Elf Priest
8840
One good thing coming out of Garrosh being Warchief is he changed ORG from a "refugee camp" into a real city. However, I did see a goblin ghetto section.
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19 Orc Warrior
200

Undead are a blight upon the land. There is nothing natural about their existence.


and gnomes are half a person....basically on the same level as undead
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7385
That is, assuming they even remember their family and friends (which lore says they don't always)


Generally, they seem to remember quite well who they were in life. Sylvanas? Godfrey (Silverpine Questline)? A great number of Forsaken quests referencing lost family members and bitterness for the tragedy they experienced? It doesn't need to be 100%, but boy, the overwhelming majority certainly know who they were before undeath.

and that their family/friends want anything to do with them...


This is what I'm appealing to. The reason I suggest the Forsaken didn't just go stay with their surviving family members and friends is because the living didn't want anything to do with them, seeing them more as monstrosities than family.

or that the forsaken in question isn't ashamed of what he's become, etc.


The many Forsaken quests show them as being either bitter or resentful for having died by the plague. Some, of course, embrace their rebirth into undeath. Even so, I don't see how this would mandate they cut off relations with friends and family who had survived them; that is unless those friends and family aren't quite so accepting of the state the Forsaken now embrace.
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
I've never heard of in lore (correct me if I am wrong please) an undead, Forsaken or not, trying to waltz their way towards their family/any human(or other Alliance) settlement (large or small) weaponLESS, with open arms, speaking Common, saying they want to come home and be with those they loved.

Again, if I am wrong and you can provide valid proof this has happened, and they were basically shot down/turned down, please show it.
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
18 hours since I posted and no response.

I guess I made a point! :O
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30 Troll Mage
450
Do the quest line in Stone Talon Mountains that ends with the local horde Overlord sends a hot air balloon with a bomb over an alliance town (the attempt at a mushroom cloud was disappointing, though).

Guess who shows up via portal from Orgrimmar? Big boy himself, and he chunks the Overlord off a 1k Needle style "Great Lift".

I smiled and said to myself, "This guy is ALRIGHT".
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90 Human Rogue
15820
Do the quest line in Stone Talon Mountains that ends with the local horde Overlord sends a hot air balloon with a bomb over an alliance town (the attempt at a mushroom cloud was disappointing, though).

Guess who shows up via portal from Orgrimmar? Big boy himself, and he chunks the Overlord off a 1k Needle style "Great Lift".

I smiled and said to myself, "This guy is ALRIGHT".


The guy can be a short tempered racist doink, can kick Vol'Jin out of Ogrimmar along with many of his kin and willingly sacrifice Cairne Bloodhoof in order to feel better about himself being dissed...

...but he tosses one bad Orc over a bridge and now he's an OK guy?

Personally I just think he wanted an excuse to murder somebody... again... Kinda like how he enjoyed killing those alliance survivors in "the Shattering" because their damaged ship drifted into Horde waters, and then let two live to "show mercy and let the alliance know".
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
Not to mention said Alliance ship was waving the white flag of surrender. Still he attacked them full force.

What a decent guy. I want to go to the MALL with him! :D
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85 Orc Warrior
3765
Nah, I disagree that Garrosh is a dbag.

After doing some of these low level quests, I find him inexperienced at leading, that is all. He's headstrong, but does what he feels is right. He'll put up with absolutely NOBODY messing with demonic power/influences (Ashenvale questline) and will not kill innocents, its not honorable (Stonetalon).

But he's also brash and inexperienced, shown by his disagreements with Cairne and Vol'Jin. Overall I like him, because he has a distinct personality and character growth that Thrall lacked in-game (although he didn't lack it in books out of game).
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85 Orc Warrior
8045
I've never heard of in lore (correct me if I am wrong please) an undead, Forsaken or not, trying to waltz their way towards their family/any human(or other Alliance) settlement (large or small) weaponLESS, with open arms, speaking Common, saying they want to come home and be with those they loved.

Again, if I am wrong and you can provide valid proof this has happened, and they were basically shot down/turned down, please show it.


Akarai doesn't have her authenticator on her so she kept bugging me via work Communicator that I should reply to this for her. Here's her response:

"Deltrus you are clearly operating under uneducated and misinformed assumptions. How about you do a little bit of research before you go spouting off your nonsense?

http://www.wowwiki.com/Lilian_Voss

There's your proof.

There's also not that much Forsaken lore out there anyway so just because it isn't advertised doesn't mean it didn't happen."

PS: I may or may not have taken some artistic liberties in the relay of this message.
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
I've never heard of in lore (correct me if I am wrong please) an undead, Forsaken or not, trying to waltz their way towards their family/any human(or other Alliance) settlement (large or small) weaponLESS, with open arms, speaking Common, saying they want to come home and be with those they loved.

Again, if I am wrong and you can provide valid proof this has happened, and they were basically shot down/turned down, please show it.


Akarai doesn't have her authenticator on her so she kept bugging me via work Communicator that I should reply to this for her. Here's her response:

"Deltrus you are clearly operating under uneducated and misinformed assumptions. How about you do a little bit of research before you go spouting off your nonsense?

http://www.wowwiki.com/Lilian_Voss

There's your proof.

There's also not that much Forsaken lore out there anyway so just because it isn't advertised doesn't mean it didn't happen."

PS: I may or may not have taken some artistic liberties in the relay of this message.


Close but no cigar.

The Scarlet Crusade is not any part of the Alliance is it? I was talking about undead/Forsaken seeking to come back to the *Alliance*, we all can agree the Scarlet Crusade are insane and would do this.

Try again.

Before you try and call me misinformed this time, please check your own facts.

From WoWWiki:

Her father instantly forgot about her and ordered Lilian's execution.[4] She now seeks retribution against her father and all of the Scarlet Crusade.

^Not Alliance related.

Edit: My apologies for the misunderstanding with human settlements, but I was not including Scarlet Crusade, I mean consider, Scarlet Crusade are not even in 100% control of the decisions they make and what they think, you know this, I know this, anyone who has done any quests about the Scarlet Crusade and ran Stratholme, knows that the Scarlet Crusade is under control of more than one dreadlord.

So I'll now inform you that the Scarlet Crusade is not involved in this argument, try to stick with sane individuals who aren't being controlled by a dreadlord.

Like citizens of Goldshire. :3
Edited by Deltrus on 12/2/2010 4:44 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9930
trying to waltz their way towards their family/any human

She was trying to go to her family. They knew it was her, she spoke to them and they still rejected her. From the quest A Scarlet Letter -

Lilian Voss says: Yes, my... wait, be quiet! I hear the lieutenant approaching.
Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: The time has come, my little captive... word has come back from your father.
Lilian Voss says: Gebler, you came! What did he say?
Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: High Priest Voss denounces you as a daughter. He's ordered that you be executed immediately.
Lilian Voss says: What? NO! This can't be! Gebler, you know me... we were friends once!
Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: The High Priest sends his regrets. He head hoped that one day you would be a powerful weapon against our enemies.
Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: Unfortunately, you were too dangerous in life, and you're far too dangerous in undeath. I will enjoy killing you, you Scourged witch...
Lilian suddenly jumps out of the cage in shadowy flames onto Gebler, killing him then goes back into the cage.
Lilian Voss says: Gebler, father, why would you...
Lilian Voss says: The world of the living may have turned its back on me, but I'm no damned Scourge. Just go.

You original point was not necessarily about the Alliance but the Forsaken's family/friends. Just because the Scarlet Crusade isn't Alliance doesn't discount it.
Edited by Akarai on 12/2/2010 5:18 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
I understand this story, however my only problem is that it has to do with a faction of people who are not right in the head. It stands to be answered by Blizzard just what would happen, if for instance Anduinn Wrynn was killed and risen as an Undead and tried to return to Variann.

I wonder.

However, do not take this like I am denouncing your post, it was my mistake in the first place to not assure that I was speaking about people who are sane in the head, not just any human. My mistake.
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90 Human Rogue
15820
... and will not kill innocents, its not honorable (Stonetalon).


I guess Garrosh forgot about that "killing innocents" in the book "the Shattering" when he set siege to an Alliance Battleship that was crippled by a tidal wave, was listing off course, was waiving a white flag of surrender and were asking for assistance.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7385
I understand this story, however my only problem is that it has to do with a faction of people who are not right in the head. It stands to be answered by Blizzard just what would happen, if for instance Anduinn Wrynn was killed and risen as an Undead and tried to return to Variann.

I wonder.


It seems at this point that anyone insisting the Alliance would welcome them with open arms is hanging on to a string. The fact remains that the very first quests players do as a Forsaken newly raised by the Vryk'ul insist repeatedly that the newly raised Forsaken are "slaves no longer" and are free to follow whatever path they choose, but "if" they choose to server the Dark Lady (Sylvanas), they could talk with certain quest givers. Coupled with this is a dedicated quest line of a newly raised undead trying to get back to family who is still living. If the free will of the Forsaken is so irrefutable, as well as their memories of who they were in life, combined with the above example of an undead doing everything she can to get back to living family (a Scarlet Crusade family member at that!), there stands no reason to suppose the reason the Forsaken aren't hanging out with old family and friends in Stormwind is because they didn't want to. I'd imagine going to family in Stormwind would be at least a little less risky than an undead going to family in the Scarlet Crusade, and thus more likely that they would try something less risky. But they don't do this. Why? They have the free will, they have the memories, and there are quests clearly illustrating the desire to be re-united with family.

In light of these facts, the most plausible reason for the division between the Alliance and their fallen, Forsaken family/former friends is that perception of the Alliance isn't a welcoming one and they know it; that the Alliance views the Forsaken more as abominations than the friends and family they were in life. We see this no clearer than in Alliance leadership like Grand Marshal Garithos in Warcraft 3.

If this is so, the current operations of the Vry'kul under the command of Sylvanas aren't so abhorrent as the Alliance might think. Sylvanas gives them a second chance in undeath, even if their family and friends won't.
Edited by Lightsabre on 12/3/2010 4:37 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
That's all good points Lightsabre, but the unfortunate fact is, this isn't Warcraft 3, this is WoW. Now I have not played WC3 (though it seems like every day I get a new reason put in front of me to play the original Warcraft games) but I know some things about the differences between WC3 and WoW, specifically concerning the lore, the behavior of people in the game, etc etc. Now here, from what I know, the leadership is different. The game is different. Blizzard has given people new personalities, made people who were super strong then, now super weak, and vice versa.

I cannot personally deny that the Alliance certainly has their superiority complex attitude, it's factual, but I honestly have some belief that there are those within the Alliance who really don't think Undead are quite as bad as you are believing. If we did think so harshly, then why would we allow Death Knights (albeit blessed by Tirion Fordring) into the Alliance? Or partner up with the Argent Dawn/Crusade who do in fact have undead in their ranks (once again led by Tirion Fordring).

Perhaps the Forsaken who want to stay with the Alliance instead of join the Horde should just give it an attempt, they should try and come back. But ah, I'm just hanging onto some string like you are insisting.

btw, Val'kyr, not Vry'kul. I'd be worried if Vry'kul were trying to raise the dead, Vry'kul are just flat out stupid.
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90 Human Rogue
15820
btw, Val'kyr, not Vry'kul. I'd be worried if Vry'kul were trying to raise the dead, Vry'kul are just flat out stupid.


Actually Vry'kul do have necromancers who raise the dead. See Utgarde Pinnacle and other areas.

But I know what you mean. ^_^ As much as I love the Vry'kul - I'm picturing in my head a Vry'kul holding a corpse by the lappel and screaming "LIVE! DAMN YOU!" in its face. :P
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85 Orc Warrior
8045
Here it goes, Deltrus, I'm paraphrasing Akarai again:

There are some examples you referenced that weren't in WC3 like the new quests. Furthermore, you can't simply discount the lore in WC3 just because it is a different game and "people have changed." It's still Warcraft lore. It's like saying that the the culling of Stratholme events don't count because it is warcraft 3. I am amused to see how people keep proving you wrong and you keep modifying the conditions of the debate to fit your own arguments.

People who are alive. Oh wait no, I mean people who are alive but don't belong to the Scarlet Crusade. Oh wait, people who were around in WC3 also don't count.

What next?

DISCLAIMER: I may or may not have taken artistic liberties in the paraphrasing of Akarai's argument.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9930
Here it goes, Deltrus, I'm paraphrasing Akarai again:

There are some examples you referenced that weren't in WC3 like the new quests. Furthermore, you can't simply discount the lore in WC3 just because it is a different game and "people have changed." It's still Warcraft lore. It's like saying that the the culling of Stratholme events don't count because it is warcraft 3. I am amused to see how people keep proving you wrong and you keep modifying the conditions of the debate to fit your own arguments.

People who are alive. Oh wait no, I mean people who are alive but don't belong to the Scarlet Crusade. Oh wait, people who were around in WC3 also don't count.

What next?

DISCLAIMER: I may or may not have taken artistic liberties in the paraphrasing of Akarai's argument.

I did not actually say most of this haha.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7385
That's all good points Lightsabre, but the unfortunate fact is, this isn't Warcraft 3, this is WoW. Now I have not played WC3 (though it seems like every day I get a new reason put in front of me to play the original Warcraft games) but I know some things about the differences between WC3 and WoW, specifically concerning the lore, the behavior of people in the game, etc etc. Now here, from what I know, the leadership is different. The game is different. Blizzard has given people new personalities, made people who were super strong then, now super weak, and vice versa.


I really don't think this is a strong argument, though. Discounting what happened in Warcraft 3 simply because it was Warcraft 3 just doesn't make sense. Warcraft 3 is what World of Warcraft is largely based on. Heck, the first two expansions have centered on characters (Illidan and Arthas) that were central in the lore of Warcraft 3. Their appearance wouldn't make any sense if not for Warcraft 3. Further still, I really don't see much change in human leadership between Grand Marshal Garithos and King Wrynn.

Not to mention that I drew this parallel only as a single example to show its symmetry to what we clearly have in World of Warcraft. Trying to discount the background of Alliance bigotry doesn't discount the points made after drawing upon things that happen directly in the game.

I cannot personally deny that the Alliance certainly has their superiority complex attitude, it's factual, but I honestly have some belief that there are those within the Alliance who really don't think Undead are quite as bad as you are believing. If we did think so harshly, then why would we allow Death Knights (albeit blessed by Tirion Fordring) into the Alliance?


Because they were, as you said, blessed by Tirion Fordring. It changes people's perspective when the current boss of all paladins says these guys are okey-dokey.

Or partner up with the Argent Dawn/Crusade who do in fact have undead in their ranks (once again led by Tirion Fordring).


On the other side of the coin, the Alliance also "partnered up with" the Horde. Their ideologies don't need to match up if they're willing to whack a common enemy together.

Perhaps the Forsaken who want to stay with the Alliance instead of join the Horde should just give it an attempt, they should try and come back. But ah, I'm just hanging onto some string like you are insisting.


Any explicit examples of this ellude me, but it really does seem heavily implied. If an entire kingdom of the Alliance was wiped out by the plague, raised to undeath, broke free of the Lich King's control, had a longing for family and a general dislike for what they'd become, wouldn't the most likely political move be to ally themselves with their living comrades: the Alliance? The fact that they didn't do this and seeing how the Alliance leadership treated the Forsaken in Warcraft 3, it seems unquestionable that they sided instead with the Horde because they were more welcoming than the stuffy races of the Alliance.

btw, Val'kyr, not Vry'kul. I'd be worried if Vry'kul were trying to raise the dead, Vry'kul are just flat out stupid.


Yes, my bad. Darn "V" words. Val'kyr. :)
Edited by Lightsabre on 12/3/2010 7:30 PM PST
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