Garrosh the Warchief

90 Human Rogue
15820
Hey Light - one quick comment... I may have missed it as I believe it was asked before, but...

How do you explain Deathknights on the Alliance side then?

They're Undead. They're not living. They were former Humans, Draenei, Dwarves, Gnomes and Nelfs in their past lives. Yet they were accepted into the Alliance.

In fact, they were former servants of the Litch King who HAVE had a record of having slaughtered a hell of a lot more than the Forsaken have...

Yet, we except them with open arms.

You really can't be playing the "racial predjudice" card there when, by their very definition, the Deathknights are exactly the same as the Forsaken. The only real difference is that they just have more of their bits intact. :P

Please stop trying to find/create reasons to make the Alliance out into some kind of intolerant racist faction that it really is not. I don't blame the Horde for the idiocy that Garrosh does nor blame the Horde for Putress' actions. Despite Sylvanas being the one who sanctioned the creation of the plague in the first place, and even used live captured humans as experiments - I do not blame the Forsaken for her actions.

However, I would blame those who approve of her actions and choices and I, above all, blame her. :P In the same way if Varian Wrynn sanctioned Forsaken for torture/execution (which he has not) I would blame him and the people who agreed with him - not the Alliance as a whole. Much in the same way that one quest line had that father see her daughter as an abomination that somebody outlined earlier in this thread - I Don't take the actions of one person as a generalized opinion of an entire civilization. I mean, if we were to judge the Horde based on Garrosh's philosophies and accept them as common horde outlook and ideology...
Edited by Meadows on 12/5/2010 12:26 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
Well Meadows, knowing you as I do, I know how much you despise making alts.

I don't know if you know.... but.... when you go to SW as a new level 58 Death Knight, you go up to the king and he's all like, ew, I'll kill you right now unless you got a really good reason for me to not.

You then give him some piece of paper from Tirion, telling him he must accept you into the Alliance. So he's like, had it not been for this letter from an old friend, I'd wipe the floor with your body.

Such a nice guy!
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
12/03/2010 12:11 PMPosted by Pibê
Here it goes, Deltrus, I'm paraphrasing Akarai again:

There are some examples you referenced that weren't in WC3 like the new quests. Furthermore, you can't simply discount the lore in WC3 just because it is a different game and "people have changed." It's still Warcraft lore. It's like saying that the the culling of Stratholme events don't count because it is warcraft 3. I am amused to see how people keep proving you wrong and you keep modifying the conditions of the debate to fit your own arguments.

People who are alive. Oh wait no, I mean people who are alive but don't belong to the Scarlet Crusade. Oh wait, people who were around in WC3 also don't count.

What next?

DISCLAIMER: I may or may not have taken artistic liberties in the paraphrasing of Akarai's argument.


Way to take what I said and twist it. I did not ever say that WC3 people didn't matter at all. I simply said that since the events of WC3, peoples' attitudes have changed, some people have gotten more serious, while others less; or that is how it seems to me.

Anyways, your only piece of lore you presented me with is one we can all agree upon as not a very good reference, since it was the Scarlet Crusade, and no matter who it is, even if their leader said this undead is our friend, they'd be like OMG ZEALOTRY!!! DESTROY THE BEAST!!!! When I had said human civilization originally, I'll say it again, I was meaning Alliance only, not other factions, not the Argent Dawn/Crusade or the Scarlet Boring, etc. Just the Alliance, none of you have yet been able to show me proof that anywhere in lore an undead actually made the attempt to reconnect with family.

So with that said, I dare say, your argument is flawed friend.
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
And lastly, Meadows was correct in reminding me that Vry'kul do indeed raise dead, however there are no Vry'kul, that I am aware of, in the ranks of the Forsaken, hehe.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7385
12/05/2010 12:16 AMPosted by Meadows
Hey Light - one quick comment... I may have missed it as I believe it was asked before, but...

How do you explain Deathknights on the Alliance side then?


Yeah, I explained this earlier: they were specifically cleared by the boss of all paladins, Tirion Fordring. It changes people's perception of a group when a holy hero says that group is okey-dokey. And even then, the Alliance didn't welcome them "with open arms." Even with that letter of approval, Death Knights get rotten fruit tossed at them and spit on as they walk through the streets.

Please stop trying to find/create reasons to make the Alliance out into some kind of intolerant racist faction that it really is not.


The thing is the Alliance has a history of it. Look at how Alliance leadership treated the Forsaken in Warcraft 3. Look at how Alliance leadership betrayed the Blood Elves in Warcraft 3. Every Horde race that was once a part of the Alliance (citizens of Lordaeron and Quel'thalas) are now part of the Horde not because they turned their backs on the Alliance, but because the Alliance first turned their backs on them for no other reason than racial bigotry.

I don't blame the Horde for the idiocy that Garrosh does nor blame the Horde for Putress' actions. Despite Sylvanas being the one who sanctioned the creation of the plague in the first place, and even used live captured humans as experiments - I do not blame the Forsaken for her actions.


You can take out Garrosh. String him up by his own entrails in Stormwind and send me a picture. The guy is a hot head and a moron (aside from the fact he did give Orgrimmar a better look). It wouldn't make sense to blame the Horde for the actions of Putress and Varimathras - they fought against the Horde as well. As far as Sylvanas is concerned, I think she's awesome. Humans are always picking on the Forsaken, whether Alliance or Scarlet Crusade (who, themselves, torture Forsaken in the Scarlet Monestary), so I feel little sympathy when the Forsaken snap back with a little human experimentation to perfect their plague, which had a primary purpose of destroying the Scourge.
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90 Human Rogue
15820
eah, I explained this earlier: they were specifically cleared by the boss of all paladins, Tirion Fordring. It changes people's perception of a group when a holy hero says that group is okey-dokey. And even then, the Alliance didn't welcome them "with open arms." Even with that letter of approval, Death Knights get rotten fruit tossed at them and spit on as they walk through the streets.


Hehe - I'll agree with the "open arms" comment. It was late when I wrote that, and I thought later "Wait, weren't they tossing fruit and stuff at them first?". However, that is no different than the Horde's reaction to Deathknights, is it? Even Varian Wryn can set his racial biasism against the undead when given enough inspiration.

My point still remains, however, that the Alliance CAN accept and HAVE accepted undead into their ranks. How many humans have the Forsaken, indeed the whole horde, accepted into their ranks? :P In fact, I'll even say it's much more likely that the Alliance would accept Forsaken members into them vs the Forsaken accepting humans/alliance members into their ranks.

The Alliance has clearly demonstrated the capacity to put racial bigotry aside, at least in regards to the undead, when given the right inspiration. By your own argument, all Sylvanas has to do is make a grand peace offering (or hell, get Tirion to broker a treaty!) and the Alliance will gladly listen and, in fact, come to accept the Forsaken.

Maybe if Sylvanas killed off Garrosh perhaps? ^_^

Edit: I never played WC 1-3. All my lore is based on WoW and the novelizations. Perhaps that gives me an untarnished, unbiased perspective of the current generation? :P
Edited by Meadows on 12/5/2010 7:13 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7385
12/05/2010 7:00 AMPosted by Meadows
My point still remains, however, that the Alliance CAN accept and HAVE accepted undead into their ranks. How many humans have the Forsaken, indeed the whole horde, accepted into their ranks? :P


How many humans have tried joining the Horde? I know there was a Dwarf Horde NPC in Un'goro crater at Marshal's Refuge, so the idea of acceptance isn't out of the question. Suffice it to say that Death Knights are a special case; the exception, not the norm of acceptance for the Alliance. Aside from them, there's not a single undead Alliance NPC.

In fact, I'll even say it's much more likely that the Alliance would accept Forsaken members into them vs the Forsaken accepting humans/alliance members into their ranks.


History tells us a different story in Warcraft 3 - the characters and events of which WoW is based on.

The Alliance has clearly demonstrated the capacity to put racial bigotry aside, at least in regards to the undead, when given the right inspiration. By your own argument, all Sylvanas has to do is make a grand peace offering (or hell, get Tirion to broker a treaty!) and the Alliance will gladly listen and, in fact, come to accept the Forsaken.


Eh, that's quite a leap you're making there, especially with Varian Wrynn as your king, and in spite of the treatment the Alliance has historically given the Forsaken from the start. Again, it begs the question of why these former Alliance members - the flag bearers in the fight against the Lich King and the Burning Legion - would not join up with their Alliance buddies after being raised to undeath. The fact is that the Alliance doesn't recognize the Forsaken as legitimate people with rights. Sylvanas explained this outright during one of the new quests in Silverpine Forest - that the Alliance don't recognize the Forsaken's rights to the land of Lordearon and seek to claim it as their own. Curious, since the citizens who claimed the land in life do so now in death as well.

Maybe if Sylvanas killed off Garrosh perhaps? ^_^


Here's to hoping.

Edit: I never played WC 1-3. All my lore is based on WoW and the novelizations. Perhaps that gives me an untarnished, unbiased perspective of the current generation? :P


Lack of knowledge and exposure to warcraft history doesn't render your perspective "untarnished" or "unbiased." It only makes your perception more uninformed. It's not a matter of thinking "Well, this is the way it was, so this is the way it must be now," but taking into consideration how it has been in the past to get an understanding of why things are the way they are now in the present.
Edited by Lightsabre on 12/7/2010 5:44 AM PST
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90 Human Rogue
15820
Suffice it to say that Death Knights are a special case; the exception, not the norm of acceptance for the Alliance. Aside from them, there's not a single undead Alliance NPC.


Suffice it to say that, aside from the masses of walking undead Deathknights who have joined the Alliance... there isn't a single undead Alliance member...

And stop trying to say DKs are a "special case" as if to imply that somehow that doesn't count. it does. Alliance shows tolerance to Undead in their own faction. End. of. story.

Just stop already. You're not convincing anybody. :P
Edited by Meadows on 12/7/2010 8:45 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7385
12/07/2010 8:41 PMPosted by Meadows
And stop trying to say DKs are a "special case" as if to imply that somehow that doesn't count. it does. Alliance shows tolerance to Undead in their own faction. End. of. story.


Tolerance in a very specifice case does not mandate tolerance in general. The only reason Death Knights weren't killed immediately was because they were already under the protection of Tirion Fordring. It was only because of his acceptance that they were approved. The Alliance didn't take the initiative to accept them - they were basically told to accept them by Tirion Fordring, so it's really not a good example of how gosh-darn accepting the Alliance can be.

Just stop already. You're not convincing anybody. :P


So it seems, especially a person who thinks knowledge of history "contaminates" one's worldview instead of enlightening it. Heh, that really does blow my mind. I suppose we should do away with all those contaminating history courses in high school and college, eh? Wouldn't want to get the big picture and realize why things are the way they are today. :)
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90 Human Rogue
15820
Tolerance in a very specifice case does not mandate tolerance in general. The only reason Death Knights weren't killed immediately was because they were already under the protection of Tirion Fordring. It was only because of his acceptance that they were approved. The Alliance didn't take the initiative to accept them - they were basically told to accept them by Tirion Fordring, so it's really not a good example of how gosh-darn accepting the Alliance can be.


The Deathknights joined. The humans accepted them. You can paint any cause you want - but the point is still the same. The humans ACCEPTED undead into their ranks. They're capable of it and have shown it. I've already proven this point... you lost already... give it up...

Again, just stop already. You're not convincing anybody. :P

So it seems, especially a person who thinks knowledge of history "contaminates" one's worldview instead of enlightening it. Heh, that really does blow my mind. I suppose we should do away with all those contaminating history courses in high school and college, eh? Wouldn't want to get the big picture and realize why things are the way they are today. :)


Oh for the love of...

First off we're talking GAME history... Game history in the eyes of Blizzard means jack squat. According to Game History, Varian Wrynn was a wise and benevolent ruler and the Goblins are Suicidal Psychopaths hell-bent on blowing themselves up. That went out the door in one generation of games.

Secondly - I never said history doesn't "count" and shouldn't be studied IRL. That's moronic and now you're just trying to turn this into some kind of vindictive personal attack in a (yet again) failed attempt to make somebody look bad.

We were having a fine civil debate on the game lore - and you now you're trying to twist this thread into a personal attack on me for some reason. /shame...

Obviously REAL LIFE history operates completely different, as social cultures do not turn on a hairpin (save for the possibility of an alien spacecraft landing at Washington DC...). Even pre-WW2 Germany took several years to develop. And even then the majority of the population were completely shocked to find out the lengths the leadership went to with the camps...

And, based on your argument - just because White Americans have been slave owners historically in the past, does that mean we will forever try to become slave owners and never accept other races into our culture? You're saying that since I'm, historically and biologically speaking, 100% white and German, that one day I'm going to grab a pitchfork and shackles and run at the nearest African American Jewish person I find?

Do we never forgive Japan for bombing Pearl Harbor? Does Japan never forgive us? Historically speaking do you actually believe Japan is going to bomb us again in future? Historically speaking do you think we're going to drop more bombs on Japan?

To clarify my analogy (the one that you're trying to twist into some kind of personal attack), I'm not of the Warcraft 1-3 generation. I'm from the new generation today, who takes into consideration what actions are being done TODAY. Of course I look at the past - but I don't live in the past like some victim-thinking trauma patient. The purpose of history is to learn from the mistakes that others make and don't make them yourselves. Warcraft will never do that (Garrosh and Wryn are examples) as the designers will ignore that to get us to fight each other.

Having failed in proving your falsehood personal attack on the Alliance with your "Alliance doesn't accept undead, oh snaps - I forgot that they have Deathknights living in our towns..." argument - you now simply are just trying to change the subject to conduct a personal attack on the me IRL. Obviously I don't think REAL history isn't important. I never said that despite you trying to shove words into my mouth. But WoW's history doesn't mean jack squat... and you know this...

Seriously, just stop... You're digging yourself into a bottomless hole... I thought we were having a civil debate about lore - But now you've sunk down to RL personal attacks?

/boggle...
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100 Blood Elf Priest
10865
12/09/2010 8:55 AMPosted by Meadows
And, based on your argument - just because White Americans have been slave owners historically in the past, does that mean we will forever try to become slave owners and never accept other races into our culture?

Just because you are an open minded and reasonable individual does not mean other people are the same. I am pretty sure I'd be banned for repeating what a few extended family members have said about other races.
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18 Blood Elf Paladin
80
sure is a lot of butthurt up in this thread.
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
12/09/2010 10:12 AMPosted by Akarai
12/09/2010 8:55 AMPosted by Meadows
And, based on your argument - just because White Americans have been slave owners historically in the past, does that mean we will forever try to become slave owners and never accept other races into our culture?

Just because you are an open minded and reasonable individual does not mean other people are the same. I am pretty sure I'd be banned for repeating what a few extended family members have said about other races.


What you say is true, however there's still the fact that not everyone of each race is the exact same of someone else of their race; I dare say that's what Meadows was trying to say. There will always be the racist jerks, and there will always be more accepting people.

That's life for ya.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
10865
12/09/2010 1:51 PMPosted by Deltrus
What you say is true, however there's still the fact that not everyone of each race is the exact same of someone else of their race; I dare say that's what Meadows was trying to say. There will always be the racist jerks, and there will always be more accepting people.

That's life for ya.

Yep, I don't disagree. However, the racist jerks can be the ruling majority (or vocal minority) which can dictate the laws or rules of a group of people.

Anyway, I love my suicidal psychopath goblin. :-D
Edited by Akarai on 12/9/2010 2:41 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7385
I'd posted something more, but it got lost in the internet some how. Either way, here's the second half. I'm too lazy and apathetic to type up the first half again...

And, based on your argument - just because White Americans have been slave owners historically in the past, does that mean we will forever try to become slave owners and never accept other races into our culture? You're saying that since I'm, historically and biologically speaking, 100% white and German, that one day I'm going to grab a pitchfork and shackles and run at the nearest African American Jewish person I find?


This is an unparallel analogy. North American culture is no longer this way because of the civil rights movement. I can point you to specific events that caused such a huge change in the pro-slavery culture. You have no such support for your assertion that the Alliance (humans in particular) has changed from what it historically has been. The mandate from Tirion Fordring concerning Death Knights is in no way indicative of the Alliance's own acceptance of the undead; only of their acceptance of Tirion Fordring's mandates.

Do we never forgive Japan for bombing Pearl Harbor? Does Japan never forgive us? Historically speaking do you actually believe Japan is going to bomb us again in future? Historically speaking do you think we're going to drop more bombs on Japan?


Again, I never advocated that change can't happen. I only point out that there has been no event or events that changed the Alliance's perception of the undead in general (or Blood Elves for that matter). You're asking us to believe that the humans of the Alliance - whose bigotry against the Forsaken and Blood Elves forced them to separate from the Alliance and join the Horde - are now magically all-accepting? I'm sorry, I don't buy that.

To clarify my analogy (the one that you're trying to twist into some kind of personal attack), I'm not of the Warcraft 1-3 generation. I'm from the new generation today, who takes into consideration what actions are being done TODAY. Of course I look at the past - but I don't live in the past like some victim-thinking trauma patient. The purpose of history is to learn from the mistakes that others make and don't make them yourselves. Warcraft will never do that (Garrosh and Wryn are examples) as the designers will ignore that to get us to fight each other.


So... earlier in this post, you suggested the Alliance changed from bigots in Warcraft 3 to all-accepting in WoW for no reason and marked by no event, yet here you suggest that they just won't ever change. Interesting.

Having failed in proving your falsehood personal attack on the Alliance with your "Alliance doesn't accept undead, oh snaps - I forgot that they have Deathknights living in our towns..." argument - you now simply are just trying to change the subject to conduct a personal attack on the me IRL.


Eh, not quite. This is merely a red herring. I questioned your scoffing history and you took it personally. You suggested that I wasn't convincing anyone (really only speaking about yourself) and I agreed, stating why. I can't help if you get all up in arms about it, but very well - for your sake, I'll ignore any personal references you make.
Edited by Lightsabre on 12/10/2010 7:40 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
12770
So while you guys are arguing and hating and drama'ing.....

Akarai and Deltrus are talking civilly....

What else is new?
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85 Gnome Priest
3800
ready.. set.. go!
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
9920
Eh? Go? Oh, I see. Because Garrosh is actually gonna get taken out before the next expansion comes. About time!

Still, that leaves an empty throne for a warchief. Dare we presume Thrall takes it up again or is someone else going to move in (and if so, who)?
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100 Human Death Knight
17365
I will become Warchief and enslave the horde.
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100 Tauren Druid
16120
This was a blue post commenting in a thread about Anduin going neutral in MoP:
The "He" in this post is a reference to Thrall.

Posted by Levinthar
Erm...He's going back to being warchief of the horde. Which apparently isn't supposed to bother all the alliance that have been working with him for the last few years.

05/04/2012 03:27 PMPosted by Zarhym
I know what was said during the press tour, but don't be so sure yet that you know who the next warchief will be. The information provided during the press tour was... not entirely accurate.


So, looks like Thrall will not be warchief? Or an attempt by Blizzard to squash an early spoiler?

~Fuzzles
Edited by Mìstrfuzzles on 5/6/2012 12:45 PM PDT
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