Is Colossus Smash balanced?

100 Human Warrior
14735
The problem of course being that without CS warriors do pitiful damage that is laughed at by...everyone.

It's a damned if they do damned if they don't situation.


Except they showed over the last week that they can buff our damage to be competitive, even overpowered, without CS.

I really want to see CS as a strike that ignores armor itself. Making it something akin to a rogue's Envenom, a hard hitting finishing strike that is more effective against higher armored targets.

The way it is now is far too much of a damage swing when it's up vs when it's down.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Death Knight
4000
Colossus Smash itself should ignore armor. The following 6 seconds (or more if it needs to be buffed after i give you my idea) is to let critical hits bypass armor (not resilience). Not all hits should bypass armor.
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
6190
I wish I could figure out why blizzard thought a 50% damage increase for 6 seconds on a 20 second cooldown, with a randomized cooldown reset, was a good idea.


Imagine if they made Deathwish a 20 second cooldown 6 second duration, or Avenging Wrath. Can you imagine how much crying that would cause?

Now imagine Deathwish/AV having their damage boost doubled.


That's colossus smash.
this.

it sucks, because anyone who has watched beta footage can see the wild swings of damage warriors get with this ability, and know deep down it is going to see them nerfed hard.

my concern is that they will not be compensated adequately, leaving arms as a low damage pve spec again, and keeping fury terrible in pvp.
Reply Quote
60 Night Elf Warrior
0
The problem of course being that without CS warriors do pitiful damage that is laughed at by...everyone.

It's a damned if they do damned if they don't situation.


Except they showed over the last week that they can buff our damage to be competitive, even overpowered, without CS.

I really want to see CS as a strike that ignores armor itself. Making it something akin to a rogue's Envenom, a hard hitting finishing strike that is more effective against higher armored targets.

The way it is now is far too much of a damage swing when it's up vs when it's down.


No, what they showed us (from PVP perspective) is that they can buff our damage. Which lets us wreck cloth, and be totally useless on mail/plate.

CS equalizes the numbers across all armor types, that's it's best point. It means they can balance our strikes to assume 0 armor.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Rogue
9740
No, because that would be retarded.

I wonder HOW the devs can justify going through an entire set of stat changes, and the removal of Armor Penetration, and then just give 100% armor pen to Warriors with 30% uptime. They went to the trouble of removing it because too much ArP was overpowered, and then turn around and give a class complete armor bypass 30% of the time?

I guarantee you the guy who made the final decision on THAT one also made the decision to gives Mages bloodlust.
Reply Quote
100 Human Warrior
14735
No, because that would be retarded.

I wonder HOW the devs can justify going through an entire set of stat changes, and the removal of Armor Penetration, and then just give 100% armor pen to Warriors with 30% uptime. They went to the trouble of removing it because too much ArP was overpowered, and then turn around and give a class complete armor bypass 30% of the time?

I guarantee you the guy who made the final decision on THAT one also made the decision to gives Mages bloodlust.


The decision to remove armorpen as a stat is because as a stat armorpen is overpowered. It simply scaled at a much different rate than any other stat, with a wildly different scaling from spec to spec. So you'd have some classes/specs who scaled absurdly well with it (Warriors, Ferals, Combat), while you'd have others who got nothing out of it. As a stat found on gear, this isn't desirable because it makes a large chunk of the drops available in a tier useless to some specs, and other specs who won't take a piece without it. That is the primary way in which armorpen were overpowered.

100% Passive armorpen in of itself isn't an overpowered concept. See: Every caster in the game who has no damage mitigated by armor. All it takes to balance that is to lower the damage to the point where the unmitigated damage is in line with others' mitigated damage. Similarly, any passive amount of armorpen in between is fine, as long as it's accounted for in your base damage.


What's bad is having one stat worth more than other stats, because gaining more out of a given amount of itemization is the source of scaling issues, and the primary reason Fury went from terrible to amazing within a few tiers of gear.


The current implementation of colossus smash faces a different problem though. While it is capable to balance around 6 seconds of awesome, particularly in PVE it's not too hard to do, it does give the class a very distinct feeling of lacking when it's not up. In order to balance warriors doing so much damage during the time CS is up, we must by necessity do a lot less while it's down. This results in us feeling weak 70% of the time in PVE, and makes us a non-threat for that same amount of time in PVP, while at the same time making our burst during the 6 seconds of awesome potentially too strong, surpassing even what we had in 3.3.5 with 100% armorpen, and coming with no cost to resilience at all (where to get 100% armorpen via stats you were giving up a lot of resil, due to no arp itemized pvp gear)
Edited by Secondwind on 11/29/2010 1:17 PM PST
Reply Quote
At the end of beta ( After all our nerfs) In full 359 EPIC GEAR, my MS/OP was criting for the highest in a CS for 17/18K ( Compared to my 30K in blues before enrf it a huge nerf) While on my other premade, my Dk, Mage and Shaman ( Surely other classes) I was still able to crit for 25k+


You wont get your nerf

The difference is that in a CS you're dropping 1-2 MS's, 1-2 OPs, and 1-2 HS, that are all critting for 13-20k, in addition to 2-3 white swings. On a 20s cooldown (or less). You're also probably critting with these abilities (MS with Jugg up, OP always) more often than most other classes.

Critting 3-4 times for 17k is a lot more damage than critting 1-2 big hits for 25k.

I don't think CS should be nerfed quite yet, but it's also far from being safe in its current form.
Edited by Jaggi on 11/29/2010 2:38 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Rogue
10735
No, it's a retarded move. Warrior burst is out of hand in short intervals, but their damage is fine over the long run. This move just compounds the issue. I don't think any class can be balanced with such a wide swing of damage intervals in both pvp or pve.

I think blizzard's attempt to make certain pvp trees viable for pve are failing. I'm not saying it can't be done, but blizzard is obviously not willing to take the necessary steps to make it happen.

Colossus smash may be "Fun" or add "flavor" to the class, but it's retarded in it's current state. Blizzard would never add a button to a class that said, "Push this for double damage for 6 seconds", because that would be retarded, but it's exactly what they did with colossus smash.

I think it's time to redesign the ability, and balance warrior damage accordingly. Either it needs to only ignore a % of armor, or it needs to be a single attack that ignores armor imo



One word...Disarm....and CS becomes null....


Good thing it isn't on a short cooldown.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Warlock
5930
CS is going to be something that Warriors pretty much spend all of their time working around. You'll be completely unable to kill anybody without it up, so whatever damage you're doing in the interim is pretty much pointless except fill up that Rage bar and try not to get killed.

Be kinda like a Frost Mage in vanilla WoW. Can't do jack frigging diddly except for a short period of time where you have an opportunity to kill someone for a few seconds every 20.
Edited by Bibdy on 11/29/2010 4:40 PM PST
Reply Quote
Effects that swing damage by 50% at a time with high or constant uptimes are not balanceable. I simply don't understand how the same designers who nerfed Mortal Strike can leave things like Colossus Smash in the game knowing that the exact same logic indisputably applies in both cases.

That is not to say that I think warriors need an overall damage nerf (although the PvE data suggests that they do) but it's simply going to be disastrous if warriors are balanced around having the most burst in the game.
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
6190

Precisely why I hate the ability. Either we're gimps without it up and spend all our time trying to manage those short kill windows, or it's insanely OP when it's up because our damage is still to be feared without it up. And anybody we can sustain consistent uptime on ( no ability to temporarily gain distance/cc each time CS is up) will die a horribly painful death.
gotta love grux
Reply Quote
85 Orc Warlock
5930
Effects that swing damage by 50% at a time with high or constant uptimes are not balanceable. I simply don't understand how the same designers who nerfed Mortal Strike can leave things like Colossus Smash in the game knowing that the exact same logic indisputably applies in both cases.

That is not to say that I think warriors need an overall damage nerf (although the PvE data suggests that they do) but it's simply going to be disastrous if warriors are balanced around having the most burst in the game.


Well, if you think about it, Colossus Smash is the replacement for MS. Before they'd essentially just hammer a guy to death while the healer tried to keep up with the crippling nature of the MS debuff, with everyone doing their damndest to get the Warrior off them. MS had to be strong, otherwise the healer just healed through it, and the Warrior's presence was negligible. CS does basically the same thing. People need to get the Warrior the hell off them, and the healer just has to heal an exorbitant amount to deal with it.

At least, I think that's the philosophical reason behind it. How it will play out in reality is a Warrior class that plays very different, who's success or failure is more likely to depend on smart use of Colossus Smash than anything else.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]