@85 DPS on EJ 'spreadsheets'

90 Gnome Warrior
8050
Wow Blizz removed the Thread already talking about this because it's useless

That thing is a beta simulator with rogues rotation being broken and lots of broken stuff, It's WRONG to make any kind of DECISIONS over that list and thats why Blizz removed it
Reply Quote
85 Troll Druid
9530
Can we stop calling a simulation a "spreadsheet", with or without quotes? Not the same thing.
except it is a spreadsheet, a spreadsheet with a nice looking gui
Reply Quote
weren't hunters supposed to be doing good dps in cata?

and thats not what ive seen in some of premonitions videos.

its mostly rets/warriors/hunters/mages/druids/rogues near the top spots of course I only watched 2 vids.
Reply Quote
- World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
It's not a spreadsheet. It's not anything like a spreadsheet. A spreadsheet calculates averages; a simulation actually calculates the result of every single individual event in the simulated encounter, and then repeats the encounter thousands of times to generate a reasonable average.

Where a spreadsheet tries to say, "OK, given this crit rate, we expect this average damage and this average number of hot streaks," etc., a sim says, "OK, this spell took X seconds to travel to the target, it hit, it was a crit, we increment the hot streak counter, is that counter up to two? OK, we have a hot streak, we apply the buff, we start the timer on the player's reaction time to see how quickly he can respond to the buff," etc.

Very different sort of thing.
Reply Quote
85 Human Warrior
6405
Btw ef I probably know my class better than you, and an unreliable Sinulation means nothing versus actual beta reports we've seen, even with insane amounts of mastery as arms, they would not have nearly as big of an advantage over where fury was sitting before beta ended.
Reply Quote
85 Troll Druid
9530
It's not a spreadsheet. It's not anything like a spreadsheet. A spreadsheet calculates averages; a simulation actually calculates the result of every single individual event in the simulated encounter, and then repeats the encounter thousands of times to generate a reasonable average.

Where a spreadsheet tries to say, "OK, given this crit rate, we expect this average damage and this average number of hot streaks," etc., a sim says, "OK, this spell took X seconds to travel to the target, it hit, it was a crit, we increment the hot streak counter, is that counter up to two? OK, we have a hot streak, we apply the buff, we start the timer on the player's reaction time to see how quickly he can respond to the buff," etc.

Very different sort of thing.

guess whats behind the scenes of the simulator, a spreadsheet(maybe not visible to you but its there)

also many spreadsheets do all those calculations, theres landsouls, aldrianas, etc
Edited by Loregasm on 11/30/2010 5:53 PM PST
Reply Quote
- World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
No, a spreadsheet is not behind the scenes of the simulator. I have the source code in front of me.

"It does math" is not synonymous with "it's a spreadsheet."

"It does multiple calculations" is not synonymous with "It steps through the entire encounter, individually simulating every single event performed by every single entity present in the raid."

They are different approaches to the problem. Each has its advantages.

Actually, here is Dedmonwakeen's own discussion of the differences:

Formulation-vs-Simulation

Formulation
  • The greatest strength of formulation lies in the fact that it is deterministic.

  • No matter how many times you do the analysis, you always get the same answer.

  • This determinism enables analysis of very small changes in the input model.

  • This is exceptionally useful when comparing talents and/or gear.


Simulation
  • The greatest strength of simulation is its accuracy.

  • Where formulation must reduce a complex interaction into abstractions representing (sometimes loosely) the original behaviour, simulation simply models the actual behaviour.

  • However, simulation may return return different accurate results depending upon the number of misses, crits, procs, etc.

  • When comparing two different simulations, one must iterate each simulation many MANY times in order to determine expected behaviour.

  • Due to this variance, it can be costly (from a simulation runtime perspective) to measure the effect of small changes in gear.

Full document is here, worth a read:
http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/wiki/FormulationVsSimulation
Edited by Lhivera on 11/30/2010 5:55 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Hunter
9610
I wouldn't ask for much in the way of PvE balance until a good deal of first tier raiding has played out on live.
Reply Quote
85 Troll Druid
9530
No, a spreadsheet is not behind the scenes of the simulator. I have the source code in front of me.

"It does math" is not synonymous with "it's a spreadsheet."

"It does multiple calculations" is not synonymous with "It steps through the entire encounter, individually simulating every single event performed by every single entity present in the raid."

They are different approaches to the problem. Each has its advantages.

Actually, here is Dedmonwakeen's own discussion of the differences:

Full document is here, worth a read:
http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/wiki/FormulationVsSimulation


where was i arguing simulation vs formulation, they can both do the same thing, albeit a simulation in the way simulationcraft does it would be much easier to work with they both take a value from spot x, manipulate it with spot y, and put it at spot z so it can come out as dps, that is what a spreadsheet is and what i was talking about if you cant see how they are similar in almost every respect there you are blind
Reply Quote
- World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
A spreadsheet works through formulation. It doesn't (virtually) cast 100,000 fireballs and count how many crit, how many miss, and how many hit. It multiplies 100,000 by the hit rate, the crit rate, and the miss rate, and comes up with an average value for the three results.

They are used for the same purpose, they take similar inputs and produce similar outputs, but the way the function under the hood is completely different.

That is why we spell and pronounce the two words differently.
Reply Quote
85 Troll Druid
9530
A spreadsheet works through formulation. It doesn't (virtually) cast 100,000 fireballs and count how many crit, how many miss, and how many hit. It multiplies 100,000 by the hit rate, the crit rate, and the miss rate, and comes up with an average value for the three results.

They are used for the same purpose, they take similar inputs and produce similar outputs, but the way the function under the hood is completely different.

That is why we spell and pronounce the two words differently.


one taking x and manipulating it by y to come out with z vs one taking x and manipulating it by y to come out to z 1000 times
Edited by Loregasm on 11/30/2010 6:22 PM PST
Reply Quote
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
I couldn't find the old thread, so i'll ask here:

Does anyone
A: have a link to the actual sheet:

or
preferably, know what they used for the feral druid dps part?
Since the most accurate tool at the moment for the spec is Mew, which isn't in spreadsheet format.


Reply Quote
85 Troll Druid
9530
most likely the BiS listing in simulationcraft, i havent checked what it has but im sure it has the feral bis in there
Reply Quote
- World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
I believe you are using the word "spreadsheet" to mean "theorycrafting tool". Both a spreadsheet and a simulation can be used as theorycrafting tools, just as a horse and a car can both be used to travel from point A to point B. This does not mean they are the same thing, or work the same way. Spreadsheet is a word that has a meaning, which implies something about how it functions. Simulation is a word that has a meaning, which implies something about how it functions. They are two different tools for the same job, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.

Tyrazsun: You can download Windows and Mac binaries for SimulationCraft here:
http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/

However, it is outdated, and you're better off grabbing the source code and building it yourself, or waiting for the next beta build.

It is, as I have been saying, not a spreadsheet. If you grab the source code, you'll need to compile it with a c++ compiler before you can run it. Documentation is on the site and in the readme files.
Reply Quote
85 Troll Druid
9530
spreadsheet in reference to wow character dps means simulation tool, there are currently no formulation models that are actually used that i can recall today so why would i reference a formulation model
Reply Quote
85 Troll Priest
13100
There are plenty of Formulation models that are used. Rawr uses formulation, not simulation. All of the actual Excel spreadsheets use Formulation not Simulation.
MageGraf I'm unsure about but I believe is formulation.

EnhSim uses Simulation. So does SimulationCraft.
Reply Quote
80 Draenei Shaman
5220
Please stop posting these "rankings" with zero context, they do no good to anyone.

Also it is a simulator not a spreadsheet.
Reply Quote
85 Troll Druid
9530
There are plenty of Formulation models that are used. Rawr uses formulation, not simulation. All of the actual Excel spreadsheets use Formulation not Simulation.
MageGraf I'm unsure about but I believe is formulation.

EnhSim uses Simulation. So does SimulationCraft.


i thought magegraf was simulation, and rawr is also out of date and not used
Reply Quote
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
I believe you are using the word "spreadsheet" to mean "theorycrafting tool". Both a spreadsheet and a simulation can be used as theorycrafting tools, just as a horse and a car can both be used to travel from point A to point B. This does not mean they are the same thing, or work the same way. Spreadsheet is a word that has a meaning, which implies something about how it functions. Simulation is a word that has a meaning, which implies something about how it functions. They are two different tools for the same job, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.

Tyrazsun: You can download Windows and Mac binaries for SimulationCraft here:
http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/

However, it is outdated, and you're better off grabbing the source code and building it yourself, or waiting for the next beta build.

It is, as I have been saying, not a spreadsheet. If you grab the source code, you'll need to compile it with a c++ compiler before you can run it. Documentation is on the site and in the readme files.



Thanks Lhiv. <3
I'll probably have to wait for the next build(unless they made it easy for a newbie to throw stuff in, or with a gui. Haven't used simcraft and/or c++ before), but i'm still curious to dig through it. If it's an actual sim or formulation, it's probably just borrowing the code/scripting from Mew, which makes alot more sense than trying to port them into some kind of spreadsheet.




@Loregasm:

They're very different.

An easy way to put is that formulation "cheats" and throws alot of numbers at it. ie: it'll average out how many times you'll crit, take your total number of attacks, and apply a modifier.

A simulation on the other hand will run through each attack, and "roll dice" on each hit. Basically it'll "play" your toon for an entire encounter, and then repeat it say 1000 times and give you the average (so a lucky string of crits doesn't skew the numbers).

Lhivera gave more in depth explanations than i, but maybe a simpler version will make sense. It's not hugely important to someone just reading the numbers, but if something weird pops up, it can make a world of difference (either of the two can involve very different pros/cons/issues in building it in the first place)
Reply Quote
- World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
I'll just note that you now have three people who have actually worked on the code telling you it's not a spreadsheet, and leave it at that.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]