Grux: How DOTs work

80 Blood Elf Paladin
5015
* All DOTs scale with crit

* All DOTs from casters scale with haste. Corruption from a Warlock scales with haste, but Rupture from a Rogue does not. Note that diseases from a Death Knight does NOT scale with haste, even if the debuff type is disease

* The potency of a DOT is based on your stats at the time it was applied. There are three corollaries:

** If a DOT is applied explicitly, as in a Warrior's Rend, then there's no complication: Your Rend ticks for as hard as your stats are at the time you applied Rend, even if you gained more stats or damage buffs half-way through the duration.

** If a DOT has a refresh mechanic, then you're generally going to get dynamic updates on the potency of a DOT, because the DOT keeps getting "re-applied".

Example: A Shadow Priest's Sin and Punishment talent causes Mind Flay to have a chance to refresh Shadow Word Pain. If the Priest casts SWP with 1000 spell power, then gains 500 more spell power after 3 seconds, then Mind Flay refreshes SWP after the spell power gain, then his SWP will tick harder.

** Debuffs on the target itself will affect DOT potency, even if the DOT was applied before the debuff went active.

Example: A Priest casts Vampiric Touch on a boss. 3 seconds later, he gains 500 more spell power. This does not change the potency of his VT ticks, since the DOT has not updated yet.

However, 6 seconds after casting VT, the boss gains a debuff that makes him take 100% more damage. This changes the potency of his VT ticks, even if the debuff was not there at the time VT was applied.

===

I think that should cover most scenarios, excepting special cases and bugs. I assume you're already familiar with the refresh mechanics?
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85 Human Warlock
8195
Good post that will help people who aren't current with cataclysm changes.
"Like" it.
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90 Human Warrior
12950
Was there a point to calling out Grux in your topic title? like a discussion I wasnt paying attention to or something where he was misinformed about it?
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85 Human Warlock
2280
So mah dots tick faster wiff haste??@!?!?!
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90 Human Warrior
12950
So mah dots tick faster wiff haste??@!?!?!


Unless you're melee. Because giving additional haste scaling to specs that hate haste would be overpowered.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
5015

Was there a point to calling out Grux in your topic title? like a discussion I wasnt paying attention to or something where he was misinformed about it?

He made a thread asking how DOTs worked, but it seems it got deleted because he used profanity (as part of a meme) in the thread title.


Unless you're melee. Because giving additional haste scaling to specs that hate haste would be overpowered

I'm not advocating or opposing the decision either way, but the justification for holding out on haste scaling for melee specs was because Haste already increases the resource generation for melee specs.
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90 Human Warrior
12950

Was there a point to calling out Grux in your topic title? like a discussion I wasnt paying attention to or something where he was misinformed about it?

He made a thread asking how DOTs worked, but it seems it got deleted because he used profanity (as part of a meme) in the thread title.


Okay that would explain how I missed it.


Unless you're melee. Because giving additional haste scaling to specs that hate haste would be overpowered

I'm not advocating or opposing the decision either way, but the justification for holding out on haste scaling for melee specs was because Haste already increases the resource generation for melee specs.


I'm aware of the justification. And I stand by stating it is bull#!%*. As others have said, where a melee's resource is rage/energy/runes, a caster's resource is time (except in the case of Arcane, who has no DoTs to my knowledge to use them as a comparison). Haste gives them more effective time, and faster DoT ticks, and is apparently not overpowered. It has the same result in both cases: The person hitting more buttons.

There has never been a justification for not letting melee DoTs scale that actually makes sense.
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85 Orc Warrior
9220
I'm not advocating or opposing the decision either way, but the justification for holding out on haste scaling for melee specs was because Haste already increases the resource generation for melee specs.

We know what the "justification" is. Haste already reduced cast time or GCD on DoTs for casters. It's the same goddamn situation, but casters get the scaling and melee don't. I want to know why DoTs double dipping on Haste is not a problem when it's casters who have it. Because it's a awful excuse for leaving Haste as a bad stat for so many specs.
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58 Undead Rogue
830
I'm not advocating or opposing the decision either way, but the justification for holding out on haste scaling for melee specs was because Haste already increases the resource generation for melee specs.

We know what the "justification" is. Haste already reduced cast time or GCD on DoTs for casters. It's the same goddamn situation, but casters get the scaling and melee don't. I want to know why DoTs double dipping on Haste is not a problem when it's casters who have it. Because it's a awful excuse for leaving Haste as a bad stat for so many specs.


You swing faster and generate resources faster.

Saving .12234 seconds on a cast 5 times doesn't equate to an extra mortal strike in that same time frame.
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90 Human Warrior
12950
I'm not advocating or opposing the decision either way, but the justification for holding out on haste scaling for melee specs was because Haste already increases the resource generation for melee specs.

We know what the "justification" is. Haste already reduced cast time or GCD on DoTs for casters. It's the same goddamn situation, but casters get the scaling and melee don't. I want to know why DoTs double dipping on Haste is not a problem when it's casters who have it. Because it's a awful excuse for leaving Haste as a bad stat for so many specs.


You swing faster and generate resources faster.

Saving .12234 seconds on a cast 5 times doesn't equate to an extra mortal strike in that same time frame.


You realize Mortal Strike has a cooldown, and thus no matter how much haste you have you're not gaining an extra MS, right?

As for extra resources, 1% haste translates into 1 extra heroic strike roughly every 4 minutes, in terms of the rage generated, and an extra white swing about as often.
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85 Human Warlock
8195
BTW when I cast immolate, frequency of ticks = 2.39 secs
The moment I cast SF and receive Imp SF buff (15% Spell Haste), frequency of ticks = 2.08 secs
Casting a SF doesn't refresh immolate. Meaning, the duration doesn't reset to 15+ secs.

I think Frequency of Ticks is getting dynamically calculated as your spell haste changes.

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85 Orc Warrior
9220
You swing faster and generate resources faster.

Saving .12234 seconds on a cast 5 times doesn't equate to an extra mortal strike in that same time frame.

You cast faster.

Saving 0.12234 seconds on white swing 5 times and getting one sixth of the Heroic Strike doesn't equate to an extra Fireball in that same time frame.
Edited by Siguror on 11/24/2010 11:35 PM PST
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90 Undead Mage
9805
I remember when haste lowered the GCD for melee like it does for casters. Then, back in the Gruuls days this thing called a Dragonspine Trophy showed up and it was like ZOMG NERFBAT MELEE
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85 Orc Warrior
9220
I remember when haste lowered the GCD for melee like it does for casters. Then, back in the Gruuls days this thing called a Dragonspine Trophy showed up and it was like ZOMG NERFBAT MELEE

Back then Melee Haste gave twice the percentage increase as Spell Haste did. Which made Melee Haste much better for melee than Spell Haste was for casters. Then they made them give the same percentage, and Spell Haste was much more useful for casters than Melee Haste was for melee.
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BTW when I cast immolate, frequency of ticks = 2.39 secs
The moment I cast SF and receive Imp SF buff (15% Spell Haste), frequency of ticks = 2.08 secs
Casting a SF doesn't refresh immolate. Meaning, the duration doesn't reset to 15+ secs.

I think Frequency of Ticks is getting dynamically calculated as your spell haste changes.

This is actually very interesting information that merits further investigation.

I know for a fact (From testing I did just now) that spellpower does not work this way; my trinkets proc, but my existing DoTs do not go up in response unless I recast them myself.

But if haste (and perhaps crit) work this way it would be interesting and relevant for rotation purposes to know. This has the potential to make haste trinket procs more valuable than spell power procs in contradiction with the face value of the stats.
Edited by Venificus on 11/24/2010 11:43 PM PST
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
5015

I think Frequency of Ticks is getting dynamically calculated as your spell haste changes.

You're probably correct on this.


I remember when haste lowered the GCD for melee like it does for casters. Then, back in the Gruuls days this thing called a Dragonspine Trophy showed up and it was like ZOMG NERFBAT MELEE

Haste never lowered the GCD for melee.

Nerfs to melee as related to the Dragonspine Trophy were mostly due to haste's interaction with PPM effects as well as well as differences in the rating-to-percentage conversion of melee haste as compared to spell haste.


In short, dynamic update of applied dots doesn't exist, but should because it is a very clunky mechanic and something that affects many classes.

Yes. I imagine players would prefer being able to cast Tiger's Fury whenever they wanted as opposed to squeezing out more than 15 seconds worth of Tiger's Fury by casting Rip just before the buff runs out but having to baby all your buffs before pulling the DOT-trigger.
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90 Troll Druid
10175
Haste has been auto-updating for DoTs for quite some time, in fact it has been doing it since patch 4.0 went live. If you gain or lose a haste effect, then all of your currently applied DoTs will automatically alter their tick times based upon your new haste effect.

Similarly, all cast time debuffs also influence DoT tick time. If you have DoTs rolling on a target and are hit with Curse of Tongues or a boss effect such as Malleable Goo on PP, then all of your DoTs will have their tick times reduces by exactly the same ratio as your casted spells -- which really sucks for Malleable Goo by the by, 5 second DoT ticks are not cool, not cool at all.

Edit -- It should be noted that Haste is the only mechanic which automatically updates itself, no other effect does this.

Crit, spell power, and damage increasing effects will only auto-update on DoTs if they have an auto-refresh mechanic such as shadow priests with Sin and Punishment. If you do not have an auto-refresh mechanic on your DoTs, then all of these values are fixed upon cast.

Also note that the above only applies to buffs that you gain -- debuffs that the mob or player gain will automatically cause the spell to update. If you gain a buff which increases your damage by 30%, then your DoTs that are already on the target will not gain this benefit unless they either auto-refresh or you manually cast them. If a mob or player gains a debuff which increases damage take, then all DoTs currently on the target will gain the added benefit. Similarly, if you lose a buff that increase your damage by 30%, then your DoTs will not reflect this unless the they auto-refresh or you manually recast them.
Edited by Murmurs on 11/24/2010 11:58 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
8280
Feral druid dots lose mastery bonus bleed damage in any form but cat from, even if the bleed is already applied. Completely different than pretty much every dot in the game
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