Seal of justice

Why does seal of justice do less damage than seal of righteousness when pallies allready have to give up the damage from seal of truth to use it?

Also as has been said Seal of justice procing off long arm of the law(so holy cant get it) and inquisition being undispellable(still got more dispellable buffs than almost every other class even with this change) would be great and not overpowered.



Dont forget dks apply a 50% semi spammable snare at range where as rets version would only bring you to 100% run speed and can only be used once every 8 seconds.



I dont think its to much to ask for.


Edited by Xorg on 11/27/2010 4:23 AM PST
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86 Night Elf Druid
7200
Seal of justice is so bad.

For example, a h-pal has to catch up to me (feral) to use it (GL with that) and it hardly lasts any time.

As a feral I hate SoJ as a rule because it is so game changing to my class, but Ret's definatly need some type of reliable slow (not 100% either)

SoJ is really only good against feral/shammy(mounted players/rogue sprint) but not in it's current state.

Moo
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90 Human Paladin
8855
Deep talent for Ret, maybe Seals of Command, needs to roll the effects of SoJ into Seal of Insight. This gives Ret a small survivability buff and combats server latency W/O GIVING THEM A SNARE.

Ta da.


Then make Inquisition undispellable with a 25 sec duration (remove the secondary effect to Inquiry of Faith), refreshed by 3 point TV. And make Divine Protection undispellable, but lower the duration to 8 secs.

Ta da.


Ret is fixed and ready to go. Tough stuff Blizz I know, balanced Ret w/o making it overpowered in all of 30 secs.


%!%% Inquisition, man. I want it replaced with something less obnoxious.

EDIT: To be more specific, I don't want a damage increasing buff that we'll have or want to keep up, especially when tied into Holy Power. As if we don't have enough things to spend Holy Power on.
Edited by Jassu on 11/26/2010 5:02 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8855
%!%% Inquisition, man. I want it replaced with something less obnoxious.

EDIT: To be more specific, I don't want a damage increasing buff that we'll have or want to keep up, especially when tied into Holy Power. As if we don't have enough things to spend Holy Power on.


If Templar's Verdict refreshed it, it would hardly be an issue at all in PvE. In PvP, sure, but most classes don't get to operate at maximum power in PvP anyway.


I'd rather see Art of War have a 100% chance to proc from Templar's Verdict and no longer proc from auto attacks. Although, having Inquisition refreshed on Templar's Verdict is better from a PvE standpoint. Meh @ PvE, though.
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85 Human Paladin
10935
It's borderline useless. Most of the time I'll just run with SoT for the additional damage in BG's. I might swap to it if there is a druid/rogue or fire mage but that's about it : /
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85 Dwarf Paladin
4985

SoJ is really only good against feral/shammy(mounted players/rogue sprint) but not in it's current state.
Moo


This ^.

When it was applied by Judgement, it was really good against druids, and that was pretty much it. Now it's hardly worth the mana.
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85 Human Warrior
2790
seal of justice is pretty situational as its been pointed out, but for the most part its very lackluster.

With ret I see what they are trying to do, if we use SoJ we gain a +15% movement speed increase as long as it stays up (key thing here), and if someone happens to blink for example, we can Judgment to gain LAotL to catch back up for another melee swing to reduce speed.

In Cata Prot can also pick up +15% speed

problem is, in pvp things dont work like that.

And to add insult to injury every class can have the +15% due to boot enchants.

Its not so much as Paladins dont have the tools to do well in pvp...its more of an argument that those tools just arent up to par with everyone elses.

I mean, I understand they want to try to accomplish getting to the same destination but with different routes...the problem is, this way just isnt very good/reliable/useful when compared to others, other then its gimmick hit someone on a mount to force them to dismount...maybe it will be more important in rated BG's to force dismounts like that...maybe not.

Overall like I said, its lackluster compared to other snares.
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Hey guys I have to sacrifice damage to use Crippling Poison instead of Wound, what's up with that?
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85 Human Paladin
5335
Why does seal of justice do less damage than seal of righteousness when pallies allready have to give up the damage from seal of truth to use it?


What other class has to give up that much damage to use there snare? Its even worse when you remember that seal of justice only slows to normal run speed..


It's not a whole lot less than SoR, is it? And rogues have a similar model of giving up damage to use Crippling while warriors have to use a GCD every time they want to apply Hamstring. I really don't think we need a true snare, but I'm not gonna beat that dead horse.


Now that demos go so friggin' fast in BGs, does Seal of Justice slow them? 'Cause otherwise, not having a snare, I'll just start leaving SotA matches, that BG is so bad.


SoJ does slow down demos in SotA, thank God.
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90 Human Paladin
8855

It's not a whole lot less than SoR, is it? And rogues have a similar model of giving up damage to use Crippling while warriors have to use a GCD every time they want to apply Hamstring. I really don't think we need a true snare, but I'm not gonna beat that dead horse.


We don't need a true snare. That's where the synergy part of PvP comes in; someone else applies the snare for us. We support others through our methods and they support us through snaring our targets.

I absolutely do not want a snare. I feel like we'd give up too much to gain and further be homogenized with other classes. I like Ret for Ret, but we need a few tweaks to bring us up to par.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4375
Hey guys I have to sacrifice damage to use Crippling Poison instead of Wound, what's up with that?


You don't give up anything compared to what SoJ makes us give up (and by that i mean whatever you lose, we lose a lot more)
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85 Human Paladin
5335
I absolutely do not want a snare. I feel like we'd give up too much to gain and further be homogenized with other classes. I like Ret for Ret, but we need a few tweaks to bring us up to par.


I love you.


You don't give up anything compared to what SoJ makes us give up (and by that i mean whatever you lose, we lose a lot more)


While we don't actually lose a whole lot by using Justice (it's not as if you're likely to get more than a couple stacks of Truth on a target), I think SoJ could use a small damage buff, specifically to Judgement damage. This in conjunction with an 8-yd dead zone on LA would make us actually use Judgement on our targets instead of on random mouseovers. Wouldn't that be frickin amazing? Since Truth will always be better in PvE due to its DoT, this change wouldn't alter Ret PvE DPS at all.

I wish there was more complaining about LA's clunkiness so that the devs might take notice. Viability is important for sure, but so are mechanics functioning fluidly. If all I cared about was viability I would have quit my Ret long ago. ;)
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86 Night Elf Druid
7200
Slows for mele by class:

War
Hamstring -> mele
Charge -> Ranged root & interupt

DK
Desec (aoe) -> Mele
chil -> Ranged
CoI -> Ranged

Rog
Cripple poison -> mele
Sap -> mele
Throw dagger (or whatever) -> Ranged

Druid (F)
IW -> Mele
Roots -> Ranged
Bare charge -> Ranged

H-Sham
Weapon chant -> Mele
FS -> Both, roots @ range

Ret
...
...

lol

Moo

EDIT Forgot DK's

PS Also, tell me if I missed any.
Edited by Moomaid on 11/26/2010 8:20 PM PST
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80 Human Paladin
5805
Yeah, I don't want a snare either. But then why even use SoJ if everything else is so much better?

If it had some sort of other PVP utility attached to it via SoC, I'd use it. Otherwise, Ill stick to Insight/Right.
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85 Human Paladin
5335
Everything isn't so much better. >.< Righteousness barely does more damage, may break CC, and using it risks not having the Justice effect for such a small benefit. I don't get why Rets act like our other seals are something to write home about. There was a significant gap before Justice did seal damage and was included in Seals of Command.
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