Shouldn't [Thrash] be a talented ability?

85 Tauren Druid
0
additionaly wierd considering we were the veritable godlings of AoEAPS a month ago.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7500
With the new swipe bug it is nearly impossible for a druid to tank more than three things at once, Especially with a whole raid AoEing away. But I have found a solution! When tanking an ICC raid I simply switch to my ilvl 200 geared pally for the trash and then back to my druid for the bosses. Works like a charm!
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85 Tauren Druid
0
hmm, I'm not sure my lvl 72 Paladin will be able to zone into ICC, but sounds like it's worth a try!

thanks :)
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64 Blood Elf Paladin
860
hmm, I'm not sure my lvl 72 Paladin will be able to zone into ICC, but sounds like it's worth a try!

thanks :)


I was just in there. I owned AE.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
I disagree.

Obviously fixing swipe (more threat per attack) would improve total AE threat and AE threat per second. But fixing threat per attack and overall threat does not magically fix how many AE attacks we get per second.

Granted, there aren't many fights where adds spawn in pulses, stream in constantly or are so spread out that swipe will miss too many to single target threat in the next few GCDs. Regardless, it seems strange that every other tank has more than two times as many AE attacks per second for these situations.


Theory: AoE threat was fine before Swipe ceased to scale correctly.

Test: Did anyone complain about AoE threat before 4.03a?

Result: No.

Conclusion: AoE threat was fine before 4.03a.

Therefore APS is not an issue. It doesn't matter what other tanks have if the issue did not exist prior to 4.03a.

Moreover I can only think of one fight in the entire expansion where this might be an issue: Thorim. Anything else is designed to be tanked by more than 1 tank anyway, so it's irrelevant (Razorscale and Sindy Gauntlet are the only other two I can think of). Unless there's something I'm missing?
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85 Tauren Druid
0
tbh, I think we would have seen a little more momentum building behind the nerf to swipe's 'APS' if blizzard hadn't blindsided us with a far more cripping nerf.

Perfect way to leave us thanking them for our new swipe is to artifically create a situation where they can buff(fix) it for us.

of course, the generally accepted trade-off for lower APS of higher 'threat per GCD spent' has it's own advantages - so calling the 4.0.1 changes to swipe a flat out nerf is rather debatable... especially once we do pick up thrash to help fill that APS hole.
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
9665
Tanking on my druid is my offspec, I have been tanking randoms for instant queues to grind rep. The only time I have threat issues is for AoE and its because the DPS usually attacks the very second that I do, and they open up with AoE. Time where I would quickly run ahead and I allowed myself about 3 seconds on the mobs before the DPSer could begin, I didn't have threat issues. I absolutely never have single target threat issues. I believe that the majority of DPS need to learn how to play..
I haven't tanked on my druid before this patch, so all of these things is all I know. But it seems fine to me.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11710
Wow, people actually replied to my post! I stopped watching it because I thought it was going to get lost amid more sensationalist threads. Thanks for the feedback all!

Hmm, lots to reply to:

  • Comparing a druid to another tank is like comparing apples to oranges, etc.

  • I play to tank. I've got two tanks at 80, one in the high 70's, and another around 60. I am always comparing the tanks to one another. Yes, it's the differences that makes them fun. But I feel it's fair to say that druid tanking is comparatively "gimped" at 80, and presumably below. As I said, my fresh 80 paladin can keep AoE threat better. My prot warrior had a better toolkit for tanking at level 40 than my bear has at 80.

    And as has been said, in an era where Blizzard is seeking to "normalize" threat generation, tank survivability, healing, etc. I believe it's completely fair to compare them. If we want apples to still be apples, I'd love to have my smaller-hitting, spammable swipe back for mobility. But that's not going to happen, and I'm fine with that.

    You might as well compare a banana to a tree, a telephone, and a ski pole.

    I would much rather go into battle with a tree or a ski pole than a banana. Heck, I'll take the phone too... I'll go Russell Crowe on them.

  • Swap Thrash with Pulverize:

  • Personally I think thrash should be talented and pulverize should be our 81 move. It would help low to 80 level tanks and would change us from being the only tank with 1 AE per 6 seconds in those levels. Oh well.

    I love the idea, brilliant! Alternatively, I do think there are some underwhelming bear talents in our tree right now; Blizzard could get creative with them to make room for Thrash.

  • TPS theorycrafting/swipe scaling:

  • I don't think the issue with Swipe is related to "scaling" per say, nor is it a bug; it's by design to accommodate Thrash in a level. It was certainly more sustainable for threat before 4.0.3, but truth be told, I was really unhappy with it even then. In fact, I prefer when Swipe was target-capped and/or had a frontal cone mechanic. At least when it was spammable, a good bear tank was absolutely the most mobile tank for picking up adds.

  • DPS just needs to be patient:

  • The only time I have threat issues is for AoE and its because the DPS usually attacks the very second that I do, and they open up with AoE. Time where I would quickly run ahead and I allowed myself about 3 seconds on the mobs before the DPSer could begin, I didn't have threat issues.

    You have good luck with DPS. Lately I've been having DPS running ahead to the next pack of mobs while the current mobs are still alive. Granted, that's just plain stupid... But DPS is impatient as a general rule, and I hate to have to resort to (a) chain-pulling the entire dungeon, or (b) lecturing a PUG on tank etiquette, teaching unruly pew-pewers a lesson, etc.

    At any rate, I'm not concerned for myself. I'm perfectly happy playing one of my other tanks, and if I play my druid, I can claw my way to the top of the threat pile one way or another.

    Like I said, what I'm really worried about is druids attempting to level as bears. It must be absolute madness & chaos for them right now; I think there's a very good chance they'll be scared away, and lord knows this game doesn't need fewer tanks. :P

    [Edited for readability.]
    Edited by Aanye on 11/30/2010 10:56 AM PST
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    I don't think the issue with Swipe is related to "scaling" per say, nor is it a bug; it's by design to accommodate Thrash in a level. It was certainly more sustainable for threat before 4.0.3, but truth be told, I was really unhappy with it even then. In fact, I prefer when Swipe was target-capped and/or had a frontal cone mechanic. At least when it was spammable, a good bear tank was absolutely the most mobile tank for picking up adds.


    Regarding Swipe, these are the possibilities:

    1) The base damage of 128 @ level 80 is intentional and will not be increasing. This makes Swipe a waste of a GCD and everyone might as well just take it off their bars at 81.

    2) The base damage will increase dramatically between 81 -> 85 to make the ability worth using. This means there's a backwards scaling problem that makes it not fulfill the fuction it is supposed to from 36 -> 80.

    3) The base damage will continue to increase as slowly as it is now. In this case someone forgot a digit in the scaling coefficient somewhere.

    In any of these possibilities there is something wrong with Swipe.
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    100 Night Elf Druid
    11710
    Regarding Swipe, these are the possibilities:

    1) The base damage of 128 @ level 80 is intentional and will not be increasing. This makes Swipe a waste of a GCD and everyone might as well just take it off their bars at 81.

    2) The base damage will increase dramatically between 81 -> 85 to make the ability worth using. This means there's a backwards scaling problem that makes it not fulfill the fuction it is supposed to from 36 -> 80.

    3) The base damage will continue to increase as slowly as it is now. In this case someone forgot a digit in the scaling coefficient somewhere.

    In any of these possibilities there is something wrong with Swipe.


    I'll have to roll a worgen druid when Cata drops to test out how it feels at lower levels... but like you said, in any case something is wrong with Swipe.

    I just believe the problem is more philosophical than mathematical. Regardless of how Swipe scales, I think they have it tuned right now to be a "supplemental" AoE ability. They've missed the point that, for nearly 50 levels, it's supplemental to... nothing? Glyphed Maul? :P

    If you make Thrash talented and able to pick up at low level (why not 10?) then Swipe will work well as supplemental AoE for the whole leveling process.

    Another possible solution: They could change Glyph of Maul to add two targets (perhaps hitting less hard) to be more in line with glyphed Cleave.

    Perhaps doing that on top of a Thrash change would be a bit too much homogenization w/ warriors, but personally, I think they've already gone there by changing Swipe in the first place. So far, they haven't done us any favors in 4.0 by making us more warrior-like... They might as well give us some of the perks that our shield-clad, rage-chugging brethren have over us.
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    85 Tauren Druid
    0
    I just believe the problem is more philosophical than mathematical. Regardless of how Swipe scales, I think they have it tuned right now to be a "supplemental" AoE ability. They've missed the point that, for nearly 50 levels, it's supplemental to... nothing? Glyphed Maul? :P


    even a supplemental ability needs to be worth using over single target attacks in an AoE situation :)
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    100 Night Elf Druid
    11710
    even a supplemental ability needs to be worth using over single target attacks in an AoE situation :)

    As I see it, if it hits multiple targets, and it's not the only AoE ability you have, it's worth using because it's distributing threat across the entire group--unless it hits for nothing. Swipe doesn't hit for nothing... It's just not hitting for enough to be our sole AoE.

    That's not to say a tank should never hit a single-target ability on a group pull. A smart bear should still tab or click around and mangle/maul as needed to ensure threat. I presume lacerate is still a good idea for free mangles... or does the Thrash bleed override it?
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    As I see it, if it hits multiple targets, and it's not the only AoE ability you have, it's worth using because it's distributing threat across the entire group--unless it hits for nothing. Swipe doesn't hit for nothing... It's just not hitting for enough to be our sole AoE.

    That's not to say a tank should never hit a single-target ability on a group pull. A smart bear should still tab or click around and mangle/maul as needed to ensure threat. I presume lacerate is still a good idea for free mangles... or does the Thrash bleed override it?


    If the scale stays the same, it might as well be hitting for nothing.

    I'm sure there is a point at which using a Swipe on a certain number of targets would generate more threat in a grand total. However since that threat is distributed over such a large number of targets, it's very easy for DPS to overcome it (not to mention healers).

    However since Thrash is a bleed, and bleeds are increased by Mangle, you're probably better off spamming Lacerate for Mangle procs to make Thrash better.

    Won't know until I get to 85 though.

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    100 Night Elf Druid
    11710
    If the scale stays the same, it might as well be hitting for nothing.


    I can't believe I'm going to defend it, but I don't personally believe Swipe is that gimped right now. I have seen 277-geared druids claiming to have no threat issues, and I've seen fresh 80's claiming it's impossible to hold threat. I think the scaling issues people are experiencing right now are due more to the Wrath tier bloat than the Swipe math.

    I'm in-between. I wouldn't be able to hold threat with Swipe alone, but with Swipe + Maul + debuffs, I can hold on. Thrash (AoE debuff) + Swipe + Maul should be considerably easier. So I just don't feel like Swipe is "broken"... Our "rotation" is just incomplete right now.

    I'm sure there is a point at which using a Swipe on a certain number of targets would generate more threat in a grand total. However since that threat is distributed over such a large number of targets, it's very easy for DPS to overcome it (not to mention healers).

    I think a big part of Swipe's usefulness is in blanketing threat. You were talking about APS on the last page... Well, I guess I'm thinking about attacks-per-target-per-second. Lemme throw this out for a possible opening "rotation" in Cataclysm:

    Thrash > Mangle (Target A) > Lacerate (Target B) > Lacerate (Target C) > Thrash

    This is probably manageable... (In fact, sub Swipe for Thrash and this is more or less what we're doing right now at 80.) But there are issues with it.

    The first issue might be preference. How to describe this... When I'm tab/click targeting, I prefer to save my big threat dumps (Mangle on a bear) for reactive situations, e.g. as I see a DPS is beginning to approach my threat on a particular mob. If I am depending on my single-target abilities to establish threat on Target A and Target B, I'm out of luck if Target C starts to get away. Well, there's always a taunt, but taunt only works once I've lost threat.

    The second issue is more significant. Within 2 GCDs, I've established plenty of threat on Target A. The only threat I get to establish on Target C for the first 4 1/2 seconds of a fight is the initial Thrash.

    Third issue, I guess more of an aside: I thought Blizzard didn't want us to be GCD-locked? That must not apply to bears, because Swipe or no, I don't ever see a reason not to throw out a spare Lacerate on every cooldown.

    Anyhow, add Swipe into the mix and our rotation becomes more like this:

    Thrash > Swipe > Mangle (A) > Lacerate (B) > Thrash

    ...or perhaps this:

    Thrash > Mangle (A) > Swipe > Lacerate (B) > Thrash

    This first will blanket more threat up front; the latter would provide a little more leeway for choosing our next target. In either case, every mob is guaranteed to receive at least two attacks every six seconds, no matter how large the group is.

    I think this is what Blizzard has in mind for us post-80, and based on how Swipe is hitting, I do think those rotations will be viable.

    As you said, though, we won't know until we get there. Perhaps Swipe is even more gimped than I realize, and the Thrash + Swipe combo still won't cut it. If that's the case, I'm sure we will see Swipe buffed a bit.

    ...Annnnnnyhow. :P Assuming they do balance Swipe around Thrash, which it only makes sense they will do, whether that's on December 7 or some hotfix down the road... That will still leave bears under Level 81 underpowered.
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    90 Night Elf Druid
    CFT
    10670
    I can't believe I'm going to defend it, but I don't personally believe Swipe is that gimped right now. I have seen 277-geared druids claiming to have no threat issues, and I've seen fresh 80's claiming it's impossible to hold threat. I think the scaling issues people are experiencing right now are due more to the Wrath tier bloat than the Swipe math.


    Anyone that says they aren't having problems holding AoE (6-7+ targets) threat with Swipe the way it is, is either lying, or doesn't use the same definition of "AoE".

    At best, Swipe will currently do between 1250 (assuming 6000 ap, 2pct10, 30% icc buff, 0 vengeance) and 2422 (assuming 6000 ap, 2pct10, 30% icc buff, 6500 ap from vengeance) damage to an unarmored target.

    But all targets have armor.

    So cut that by about 30%....

    And you get between 800 and 1600 on a normal hit. That will generate between 3600 and 7200 threat on a normal hit, before AoE damage capping. That's 1200 TPS top end on a regular hit.

    I'm pretty sure any DPS class can output more than 1200 AoE DPS. Especially with a 30% ICC buff.

    Of course on a Crit that spikes upwards to 15262 threat / target. That's about 2543 TPS per target.

    I've seen some DPS crack that too.

    Of course, if you leave ICC it gets a whole lot worse. You're down to about half of what you would normally be doing in ICC, because of the multiplicative nature of all of the stacking buffs. Not to mention that anything outside of ICC doesn't hit worth a damn, so you'll likely end up not stacking Vengeance at all.

    Still, it remains to be seen what happens at 85. Given currently available information, I wouldn't bother hitting the button at all.

    Edit:

    If they're balancing it around TPS generated from Critting that's even more assinine than I was originally thinking.
    Edited by Arielle on 12/1/2010 1:16 AM PST
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