Ret Paladins: The Real Issues

85 Tauren Paladin
5770
Just thought I'd post this in case some blues decide to check on the paladin forum for a consensus on the problems the paladin community has found with this spec. Here is a brief list and I will edit this list if I miss anything. Please don't flame me if I forget something, the edit button is my friend!

How this list works:

The issues I will list are in rank order from most important to solve, to least important. While all issues should be fixed, these ones that are ranked highest should be fixed first.

Issue #1: Mastery

Currently ret paladin mastery is based off a "RNG" proc that many paladins feel is not a viable increase to our damage. In short, this mastery talent scales to roughly 8 mastery being equal to 1 point of strength as far as a DPS increase goes. Not only is the DPS an issue, but stacking mastery diminishes our 31 point talent Zealotry. How we would like this to be changed is to make the ret mastery (suggestions from the community incoming):

- Increase our overall damage similar to how other DPS class mastery works. Suggestions include: Mastery increases damage done by your Crusader Strike, Templar's Verdict and Judgment by 15% each additional point of mastery increases damage done by 1.5%.

- Effect inquisition

Issue #2: PvP survivability

Ret's current problem is how easy it is to lock down. The fact that we can no longer freedom out of stuns is a huge factor. Considering stuns are more powerful than ever with many classes being able to perform them, ret will continue to be easily kited. Most of the time in pvp, ret paladins feel like zombies clumsily lumbering towards their opponents only being able to hit people who don't run. There are many potential solutions to this problem:

- Bring back Hand of Freedom dispelling a stun

- Make Hand of Freedom undispellable when cast on yourself.

- Increase range of Hammer of Justice by 5 yards and Repentance by 10 yards

- Make Avenging Wrath undispellable or at least make it resistant to dispells

- Allow Long Arm of the Law drop one Movement impairing effect when procced

These fixes will allow ret paladins the ability to close the gap and actually allow us to hit people in pvp instead of watching them stun or root us and run away laughing.

Issue #3: Redundant seals:

currently, there is absolutely no use for seal of righteousness. I can imagine you want paladins to have to think about choosing the right seal for the job and right now that choice is really easy (truth). Maybe making righteousness more exciting by having the seal convert a portion of damage done by other attacks into holy damage. Make it have some kind of use and people will want to use it.

Seal Of Justice currently has no real slowing power to warrant the DPS loss. Either the damage it does should be increased, or have it slow people more than just to 100%.

These are some of the issues we, as a community would like to see fixed. If anyone would wish to post any further issues with ret that I missed, please feel free to post concerns below. I will continue to dig and find other issues and update this thread to include other suggestions. Thank you for your suggestions and hopefully someone over at Blizzard will address these concerns.
Edited by Mischiefqt on 11/30/2010 8:08 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
16855
Seal of justice, slows people to 100% movement speed and does 120 holy damage.

^ TERRIBLE
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85 Night Elf Hunter
6910
1. Idk. Maybe it'll be better in cata when you dont have so much haste. /shrug

2. WHAT? You think you can easily be kited? Did you know you can CLEANSE ANY movement impairing effect off of you, including Frost Trap and Concussive Shot when you spec into Acts of Sacrifice? It's impossible (not nearly, entirely) for Hunters to kite you whatsoever, assuming you know how to cleanse. You already move at 15% speed, and you get a 45% speed increase when you use Judgement, and you can just cleanse off all your movement impairs or Freedom. If that fails, you can still just spam heal and/or bubble.

3. I can understand that.
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85 Tauren Paladin
5770
1. Idk. Maybe it'll be better in cata when you dont have so much haste. /shrug


well the 8 mastery to 1 strength has been derived through testing at 85. It should be more valuable.

2. WHAT? You think you can easily be kited? Did you know you can CLEANSE ANY movement impairing effect off of you, including Frost Trap and Concussive Shot when you spec into Acts of Sacrifice? It's impossible (not nearly, entirely) for Hunters to kite you whatsoever, assuming you know how to cleanse. You already move at 15% speed, and you get a 45% speed increase when you use Judgement, and you can just cleanse off all your movement impairs or Freedom. If that fails, you can still just spam heal and/or bubble.


the addition of being able to cleanse roots is nice but it still takes a full GCD to cast plus reaction time. Those seconds equate to a great head start for most casters. Our gap closer is still able to be rooted which kind of defeats the purpose of it.

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90 Human Paladin
15570
I still can't figure out what issues people are having with seal of righteousness - I do more dps with it on multiple mobs than truth...less than 3 mobs? switch...

#4 should be threat. I really want to stop pulling off tanks...
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10015
I still can't figure out what issues people are having with seal of righteousness - I do more dps with it on multiple mobs than truth...less than 3 mobs? switch...

#4 should be threat. I really want to stop pulling off tanks...


I think the issue is that SoR is such a minor dps increase that most people don't bother. Plus, it cleaves with seals of command, which can be more trouble than it's worth, given the pitiful cleave damage, and the fact that we have no way to turn the cleave off. For example, in PvP SoR would be a decent seal because it hits harder in short encounters, but the cleave makes it almost useless. The last thing your rated team wants is someone running around breaking CC with every swing, especially when the cleaves themselves are so weak as to be barely noticeable.

More and more paladins are concluding that we are just not built for AoE and sticking to seal of truth all the time. This is fine, but it would be nice to see seals of command reworked into a more useful form, and one that doesn't make SoR even more marginal.

I agree about threat being an issue. I am having a devil of a time keeping threat under control, even when a fire mage beside me is pumping out much bigger numbers. I think it's bugged, as has happened with ret threat previously.
Edited by Carmie on 11/30/2010 9:31 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Hunter
6910

the addition of being able to cleanse roots is nice but it still takes a full GCD to cast plus reaction time. Those seconds equate to a great head start for most casters. Our gap closer is still able to be rooted which kind of defeats the purpose of it.
Mages have slows+roots+stuns, locks have fears+stuns+slows, priests have fear+horrify/disarm, shamans have slows+roots+thunderstorm.

Hunters only have slows and one channeled root tied to a pet on a 40 second cooldown, a disorient on a 30 second cooldown, and the inability to cause damage or tranq shot at melee range. I'm talking about Marks Hunters though... other specs might fare a little better.

While you're spending GCDs cleansing all the slows off, a Hunter isn't even using GCDs on anything but traps while you're sitting on his face, traveling at 15% speed compared to his 8% from a boot enchant. Disengage? Judgment or Repentance, you're up on his face again until Disengage is back up. What about the crab root? Just freedom out of it or cleanse it... he only will have time to tranq it once you're 5 feet away from him.

I suppose my complaint is more about Ret vs Hunters... because Ret is now a hard counter to us. Even more than Warlocks were pre-4.0.
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80 Human Paladin
4855
So what if Ret vs Hunter works ok? Ret is still not viable in PvP if it gets owned by all other ranged DPS. I personally PvP in Holy because its always more valuable to have a Holy paladin out on the field than a Ret...maybe blizz should do something about that.
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85 Goblin Rogue
3965
1. Idk. Maybe it'll be better in cata when you dont have so much haste. /shrug



Blizzard wanted Haste to let people "push more buttons".

Every DPS mastery I can think of that lets people "push more buttons" (Combat Rogue, Ret Paladin) is completely overshadowed by Haste. Haste, for both of those specs, has almost the same effect as the Mastery (More haste = more energy for combat, more haste = more Hand of Lights for Rets), BUT haste has the added bonus of affecting the GCD, autoattack speed, DoT tick speed, etc.

I personally think they have painted themselves into a corner and should consider making the masteries of this sort flat bonuses instead of RNG nobs. As it stands, both of those specs get much more from Haste, much less their primary stat.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7785
Alot of these buffs are unnecessary. At 80, either WoG was ninja buffed or everyone else was nerfed so survivability is pretty much a little worse than 3.3 but not dreadful if it scales at 85 to be similar then it can be played alright.

The problem is all that's protecting us is resilience and plate which makes us extremely susceptible to being trained. Alot of classes have passive survivability that happens with 1 or no GCD (recup,second wind,blood craze, reactive barrier etc.) which makes them focus on other aspects of their class such as control, kiting, damage while ret's being trained have to spend damage to heal themselves to full.

If word of glory remains as powerful as it is at 80 to a ret pally then I suppose the design works that is if it remains that powerful which when i played beta it was not at all.
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76 Orc Shaman
2325
Is anyone actually going to wait until 85 or are we continuing to brew this storm in a teacup?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7825
about the mastery and Ive said this previously (Since Blizz doesnt seem to mind if specs copy the same exact idea off each other) Making the Ret mastery identical to the MM hunter where each attack has a chance to cause an instant attack equal to __% weapon damage as HOLY.
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85 Human Paladin
3195
IMO the Crusader Strike CD will be an issue at 85. It's not now because we're all loaded with Haste, but at 85 ratings such as Haste/Crit get dumbed down pretty good, which will raise our CS cooldown significantly, which will screw up the rotation.
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73 Blood Elf Paladin
1240
Ret was fine in 4.0, but 4.3 holy @%!%. I heard end game ret sucks now.

(Note, I'm a holy pala, I can't tell you much tbh. So take my words lightly...)
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60 Human Priest
8910
IMO the Crusader Strike CD will be an issue at 85. It's not now because we're all loaded with Haste, but at 85 ratings such as Haste/Crit get dumbed down pretty good, which will raise our CS cooldown significantly, which will screw up the rotation.


In full 346 (heroic) gear, my 85 ret paladin had 12% haste, upwards of 16% with Hurricane proc. I reforged everything to haste while keeping hit and expertise capped.
I'm thinking there is going to be a haste softcap that ret is going to want to get to, but not go past, otherwise your Crusader Strike cd will be too short to do more than one other ability without wasting precious holy power generation.
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100 Human Paladin
13120
you're a dwarf now, ritalynn?
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85 Human Paladin
3195
IMO the Crusader Strike CD will be an issue at 85. It's not now because we're all loaded with Haste, but at 85 ratings such as Haste/Crit get dumbed down pretty good, which will raise our CS cooldown significantly, which will screw up the rotation.


In full 346 (heroic) gear, my 85 ret paladin had 12% haste, upwards of 16% with Hurricane proc. I reforged everything to haste while keeping hit and expertise capped.
I'm thinking there is going to be a haste softcap that ret is going to want to get to, but not go past, otherwise your Crusader Strike cd will be too short to do more than one other ability without wasting precious holy power generation.

Are you saying you were at 12% Haste WITH everything reforged? You need like 25+% haste to get that CS cooldown to 3 secs (this is all relevant to ping and I don't want to get into that), which is what we want. At 12% haste there will be a lot of waiting in the rotation.
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