Arena Players, Can you flip the switch?

85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Hi all,

Honest question, will arena players be able to mentally switch off, the never die mentality? In arena you have to live, if you die, its almost 100% of the time a loss. In rated BG's, your life means nothing and only the objectives of the battleground have meaning. Can you turn off this mentality at will? Will you sacrifice yourself for your team mates and the objective? I know you guys have mad skills and can get crazy scores in BG's, but can you live with being 5-15 but having a victory? Can you die to that horrible player(over and over), if it means you win the BG? Nothing but love for all PVP players.

Raennie
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2 Dwarf Hunter
0
If any of them are leftovers from honor grinding in classic, it won't be a problem. This will be business as usual for them.
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85 Orc Warlock
5930
%@%@ yes I can. That's what drives me nuts about Arena. Taking any kind of gamble to help the team win (land a killing blow), that just ends up getting you killed makes you a failure. BGs don't punish you for simply dying and allow you to play more freely by offering you lots of decisions that help the team. A level of risk/reward that goes well beyond 'kill him, but don't die in the process'.
Edited by Bibdy on 11/30/2010 11:04 AM PST
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85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
Actually no thats not the case Dusk. Grab a pocket healer or two, don't do anything but kill in the center away from flags or objectives. You can easily go 20-0, heck, Ive seen 30-0 and still lose, because KB's away from objectives(unless you are holding 4 and are blocking exits) mean little to nothing. It actually might hurt your team, because they respawn at the objectives, which could be very bad for your team. There is actually BG strategies of just not killing the team, but rather holding them in a location, while your team caps or runs a flag. There is also the hold until respawn to kill strategy. Basically you wait till you see the GY spawn then kill, because this maximizes their time in the GY. This is old school vanilla strategies that I don't think many new arena players have ever seen. They will be returning....

Raennie
Edited by Raennie on 11/30/2010 11:36 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
Actually no thats not the case Dusk. Grab a pocket healer or two, don't do anything but kill in the center away from flags or objectives. You can easily go 20-0, heck, Ive seen 30-0 and still lose, because KB's away from objectives(unless you are holding 4 and are blocking exits) mean little to nothing. It actually might hurt your team, because they respawn at the objectives, which could be very bad for your team. There is actually BG strategies of just not killing the team, but rather holding them in a location, while your team caps or runs a flag. There is also the hold until respawn to kill strategy. Basically you wait till you see the GY spawn then kill, because this maximizes their time in the GY. This is old school vanilla strategies that I don't think many new arena players have ever seen. They will be returning....

Raennie

The part that you forgot to mention was that the best-of-the-best BG teams went on to be the best-of-the-best arena teams. Vicious Cycle. TAO. Team Notorious = Team Pandemic.

At some point, you and a lot of other BG players got this notion in your head that arena players are not the same people that have been dominating all forms of competitive PvP since level 60. It's just not true.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
Dying is normally not to your advantage in battlegrounds. I don't think the penalties for death are harsh enough for rated play, but situations where you don't want to live for as long as possible are few.

There is actually BG strategies


Good arena players will be better at creating and executing battleground strategies than the vast majority of battleground players who weren't good at arena. Arena is about strategy, even if the goals are slightly different. Also, arena-sized skirmishes are going to comprise most of rated battleground fighting between skilled teams.

This belongs in the PVP forums, by the by.

Edit:
Vicious Cycle


Talking about the ones from Frostwolf Alliance?
Edited by Mayeli on 11/30/2010 11:49 AM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
7015
lol
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But then how can I flaunt my comeback victory when a rogue fails to kill me when he jumps me at 20%????
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Part of playing arena is frequently weighing the pros and cons of actions that might get you killed but also might win you the match.

Anyone who plays arenas has to deal with seeing their character die a lot to improve. Until you're relatively high rated your ratio in arena is around 1:1 when you hit your MMR.

I will spam AoE until death to delay a flag cap in AB no problem.
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85 Orc Warlock
5930
The team that goes 20-0 is normally the team that wins.


Err yeah, sure, but when was the last time you got a score like that against good players? Once the rankings even out, and you're facing appropriate teams (as opposed to farming scrub teams for the first few weeks), a 20-0 score will never happen. Any coordinated Rated BG team that spends all of its time zerging around farming for kills, is simply going to lose against another coordinated team that's actually following the objectives of the battleground.
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85 Gnome Death Knight
7605
That may be the case Cyn, but that wasn't the question. Can arena players, turn off the never die mentality at will? I want to build a strong team, of team players, who know when to sacrifice for an objective. They may be the greatest duelist or even 3's person, but can they forgo being the hero with a bagillion dps, to win a battleground. If I give an objective, will they go all out to get it, or will they run when encountering superior numbers. It takes a very certain mentality, that seems to be opposite to what arena matches teach. Its a tank mentality(sacrifice for the team) vs a never die mentality. I guess try outs will be the best way to find out. Much like vanilla....

Raennie

PS: Berserk, Rated BG != Arena, Arena you have to survive at all times, BG's holding nodes, protecting flags, capturing nodes is the only thing of importance, your life means nothing if you do not complete the objectives.
Edited by Raennie on 11/30/2010 11:57 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
The mentalities that make for good arena play are going to be the same ones that make for good battleground play.

He's right in that there are some that just plain don't translate over well. In an arena, if at any point you can kill a player without getting one of your team members killed or their members ressed, you do it. No exceptions. In a BG, there's some situations where stalling is an appropriate strategy, or leaving players OOM and in combat.

But it is important to point out that 2800+ rated arena players are not good just because they have the right tactical instincts going in to it, they also can learn important lessons from wins/losses and implement those lessons quickly and efficiently. Even if there was near-zero strategic overlap, it isn't exactly much of a stretch to say they'd pick it up quickly and dominate.
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85 Gnome Warlock
7390
Its funny to see Affx as the "spokesperson" for the "Pro-Arena" players.
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