Rogue mobility changes

80 Troll Rogue
5625
I'd say the following needs to happen, before anything else.

Evasion and sprint are combined. Cloak and vanish are combined, cooldowns on both reduced.

Sprint now functions as an undisepellable HoF, which is okay since we can't cast cleanse.

This will result in less laundry listing of cooldowns that must be twisted together to function, since they'll just be two abilities to complain about, instead of people trying to pretend sprint doesn't have to be combined with cloak to be effective, or that you have to cover vanish with cloak to stop from having a fear or deep freeze finish.

Now people will just have to complain about evasion and vanish, plus stealth.

Edit:

Sigh, people, see my second post. This is about the assassination thread and my frustration with it. The original post was sarcasm.



Suppose I stated that a little too passionately.

Here's the better way to put it with less class in-fighting.

The damage that rogues do as combat and as assassination does not justify their crippled mobility when compared to the sort of snares and roots they face, and when compared to other classes who offer what we desire, plus match us in our capacity to damage, provide utility or ability to survive.

Combat and assassination just do not seem like a choice that can stand on it's own when compared to subtlety or other melee classes, this isn't to say subtlety is doing too much damage, but that subtlety has enough on target time to make an impact, where as combat and assassination never reach their theoretical maximum due to their lack of mobility and their mechanics, such as poison stacks and bandit's guile, never reaching their end stages often enough to have an impact.

Dispel based gameplay with extremely high theoretical damage has yet to work out with any class they've attempted it with, this ranges from warriors to shaman, and the results have been poor and required fixing.

Whats worse, is dispels are interruptable and now cost a lot more than they had in the past and fewer specs have them, meaning I can't even rely upon my non-healer partners like an enhancement shaman to toss me a dispel, nor can I ask my feral druid friend to do this.

This leaves us feeling like sitting ducks at worse, and at best, if the damage and dispels ever start to make a fear worthy force, they nerf it to the ground, see warriors back in the days of mace stun if you need examples.

I'd rather have combat and assassination worked to be well rounded specs, than be "wrecking ball" achievement material.
Edited by Cilis on 11/26/2010 10:52 PM PST
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85 Worgen Rogue
4650
^^^

Backstab and hemo severely need damage buffs.
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85 Human Warlock
2280
For the love of god take away the backstab and garrote positional req's, ambush I'm fine with.
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80 Troll Rogue
5625
/facepalm

Couldn't people tell it was a rant, was it not subtle enough?

I'm sick of people doing this;

Rogues have plenty of baseline mobility!

Stealth
Vanish
Cloak
Sprint
Evasion
Deadly throw
Poisoned throwing weapons
Blind
Crippling poison

You have plenty of gap closers!


When the truth of the matter is we have one gap closer as assassination, and two as combat IF we're extremely lucky not to be resnared.

There is no way at all for you to close a gap with a competent frost mage without using two cooldowns at once, be it vanish and sprint, vanish and cloak (you have to use cloak if he blinked and began casting deep freeze, as vanish no longer interrupts spells that are casting or in air) or you have to cloak and sprint.

That is one gap closer for assassination, and barely two, if you have imp sprint, for combat, and that is only providing you're not instantly rooted or snared after popping it.

The crowning stupidity is the mouth breathing apes who call stealth a gap closer, stealth is no more a gap closer than running forward, EXCEPT IT SNARES YOU.


God sakes, by that logic I can call any attack that can be made FIRST a gap closer. There has to be a gap made, an enemy made aware and reactive, for there to be a gap closer. Stealth is not a gap closer.
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I still think the best gap closer for assassination would have been a throwable poison vial that applies 5 stacks of deadly and roots the target.
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80 Troll Rogue
5625
I still think the best gap closer for assassination would have been a throwable poison vial that applies 5 stacks of deadly and roots the target.


Combat's new attack shouldn't have been revealing strike, it should've been a ranged combo point builder, it has applications in both PvE and PvP.

Assassination should've had ranged traps like hunters, since the two classes are closely married in lore.

A poison on the floor ability like ToC, rooting and poisoning those in it. It'd be the first spec of rogue to have a root, which is truly unique, though we're not the only melee able to, enhancement can do that as well, so it's not too far out of normal design paramiters.
Edited by Cilis on 11/26/2010 7:40 PM PST
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85 Goblin Rogue
5145
I still think the best gap closer for assassination would have been a throwable poison vial that applies 5 stacks of deadly and roots the target.


Combat's new attack shouldn't have been revealing strike, it should've been a ranged combo point builder, it has applications in both PvE and PvP.

Assassination should've had ranged traps like hunters, since the two classes are closely married in lore.

A poison on the floor ability like ToC, rooting and poisoning those in it. It'd be the first spec of rogue to have a root, which is truly unique, though we're not the only melee able to, enhancement can do that as well, so it's not too far out of normal design paramiters.


LOL. I remember the first time we fought Putricide and thinking, "Hey! Why don't WE have that?!?!?"
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85 Human Rogue
10610
I still think the best gap closer for assassination would have been a throwable poison vial that applies 5 stacks of deadly and roots the target.


that's not actually a gap closer though. people come up with suggestions like this and think it'll help mobility but it doesn't, it's simply more control over a target. controlling the target is not the same as getting to a target.
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80 Troll Rogue
5625
I still think the best gap closer for assassination would have been a throwable poison vial that applies 5 stacks of deadly and roots the target.


that's not actually a gap closer though. people come up with suggestions like this and think it'll help mobility but it doesn't, it's simply more control over a target. controlling the target is not the same as getting to a target.


It really depends upon the duration and how difficult it is to escape. If I had the ability to use a frost trap as assassination, I would know that even if dispelled, short of HoF, my target was going to be waddling out of a huge denial zone. I see that as a strong gap closer, given assassination has snare reduction talents, he will likely reach his target before his enemy gets out of it, or force a major rooting cooldown, like pet freeze nova in the case of VS a frost mage.

Often times pressure is as important as closing a gap, and once you escape from a frost mage or combat rogue, there really isn't any. This is the fundamental difference between the defunct specs, and subtlety, which can maintain pressure.
Edited by Cilis on 11/26/2010 9:07 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
At 85, rogues CDs all merge into one super cooldown.
Vanish, Evasion, Sprint, CloS, Blind, and even Dismantle! BECOME::::
Vaspriaokindmantle
15 Energy .................. 20 yd range
Instant .....................5 min Cooldown
Causes the target anti-Vaspriaokindmantle-ium. Killing them instantly and causing 50% durability to their weapons. Then causes you to Vaspriaokindmantliate entering stealth with a 100% chance to remove and avoid any harmful effects till the end of time.
Note: Additional effects from Spec~
Assassination: When your target dies poison explodes out of the body dealing 500,000,000 damage to all nearby targets in a 10 yd radius.
Combat: The Anti-Vaspriaokindmantle effect changes from a target to a cone effect in front of the caster with a 30 yd range.
Subtlety: It's a secret.
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85 Human Rogue
10610
It really depends upon the duration and how difficult it is to escape. If I had the ability to use a frost trap as assassination, I would know that even if dispelled, short of HoF, my target was going to be waddling out of a huge denial zone. I see that as a strong gap closer, given assassination has snare reduction talents, he will likely reach his target before his enemy gets out of it, or force a major rooting cooldown, like pet freeze nova in the case of VS a frost mage.

Often times pressure is as important as closing a gap, and once you escape from a frost mage or combat rogue, there really isn't any. This is the fundamental difference between the defunct specs, and subtlety, which can maintain pressure.


You're really not putting it into context. You're just thinking if there's ways to slow a target from range, you'll walk slightly faster than him and eventually you may catch up. That isn't a gap closer, and it isn't particularly helpful either in small scale pvp or group play.

Snares and roots on people who want to continue to kite you are easily countered. When you're kited, you need a gap closer. A gap closer like charge, shadow step, feral charge is what is actually a difference maker. Something that allows you to apply real pressure and continue attacking the target.
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80 Draenei Shaman
2755

Sigh, people, see my second post. This is about the assassination thread and my frustration with it.


The problem is, you cannot buff rogue mobility across the board or you go back to s3-4 OP madness. You also cannot have the very high damage of Mut and have amazing mobility, something has to give.
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80 Troll Rogue
5625
There is no way at all for you to close a gap with a competent frost mage without using two cooldowns at once

Newsflash, the game isn't balanced around 1v1, more at 10.


So? The issue scales upward.

Dispel based mobility just means killing a dispeller can cripple half a team in one attack. Why would anyone have this liability when they could have an arms warrior who provides superior damage, takes less babysitting and takes less healing.

Same even exists in the rogue class, why take combat if you could have subtlety that you KNOW will get their uptime without support, making more actual DPS than combat's on paper dps?
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80 Troll Rogue
5625

Sigh, people, see my second post. This is about the assassination thread and my frustration with it.


The problem is, you cannot buff rogue mobility across the board or you go back to s3-4 OP madness. You also cannot have the very high damage of Mut and have amazing mobility, something has to give.


I've always thought prep needs to be removed so that subtlety isn't double-buffed whenever something changes with a baseline improvement.

There are alternatives.

Replace improved throwing spec or revealing strike with a talented ranged combo point builder that also causes the rogue to drop time on the cooldown of sprint each time it is used.

Change deep talents to convey lower cooldowns and additional effects, every time deadly poison ticks, the cooldown on XYZ drops 1/2 seconds.

The problem is, despite the obvious need, they're not experimenting at all, they're fine with us being one of those pures who don't have (reasonable)options in PvP or PvE.

Assassiantion for PvE, duelspec subtlety for PvP, and if you don't like positional attacks, roll another class, or forget PvPing.

Lastly, at something needing to give

Arms does more pvp burst and sustained than combat or subtlety, and is across the board superior. Obviously something doesn't have to give, you can be a well rounded class without fatal weaknesses that tie your success to how good or bad your dispel bot is, or preying upon the other team being too stupid to CC your dispeller to CC you both, two birds one stone style.
Edited by Cilis on 11/26/2010 9:48 PM PST
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80 Troll Rogue
5625
Suppose I stated that a little too passionately.

Here's the better way to put it with less class in-fighting.

The damage that rogues do as combat and as assassination does not justify their crippled mobility when compared to the sort of snares and roots they face, and when compared to other classes who offer what we desire, plus match us in our capacity to damage, provide utility or ability to survive.

Combat and assassination just do not seem like a choice that can stand on it's own when compared to subtlety or other melee classes, this isn't to say subtlety is doing too much damage, but that subtlety has enough on target time to make an impact, where as combat and assassination never reach their theoretical maximum due to their lack of mobility and their mechanics, such as poison stacks and bandit's guile, never reaching their end stages often enough to have an impact.

Dispel based gameplay with extremely high theoretical damage has yet to work out with any class they've attempted it with, this ranges from warriors to shaman, and the results have been poor and required fixing.

Whats worse, is dispels are interruptable and now cost a lot more than they had in the past and fewer specs have them, meaning I can't even rely upon my non-healer partners like an enhancement shaman to toss me a dispel, nor can I ask my feral druid friend to do this.

This leaves us feeling like sitting ducks at worse, and at best, if the damage and dispels ever start to make a fear worthy force, they nerf it to the ground, see warriors back in the days of mace stun if you need examples.

I'd rather have combat and assassination worked to be well rounded specs, than be "wrecking ball" achievement material.
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